[Nascimento]

I'm sure there are more than a few guys that have >10 years experience (or somewhere close) with weight/resistance training. Doesn't have to be a consistent 10 years, more in general, I doubt even professionals are that consistent.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. I've done more than a few so far but I feel I'm only recently starting to hit stride and efficiency. I wouldn't be surprised if others are on the same page.

Some questions:

1) How does training change as you become more experienced? Subjectively, in your experience. Age could play a role, but more specifically the factor of training for so many years.

2) Did you find you could/can still make muscle gains, despite potential decreasing with time, by always working to improve your workouts and nutrition?

There is not a better place on the web to my knowledge where I can find the best answers to these questions and a proper discussion of this topic. A simple search has many sites telling you you can add 30 pounds of muscle a year which is obviously false. Also many claims for natural trainers by people who are on steroids (nothing against it, but to claim you can achieve the result that is only possible with it without it is stupid). But how much can you realistically expect to add overtime, given experience? Also considering that your workout efficiency improves as you learn what works and what doesn't. What else have you noticed that improves/changes/needs attention overtime?

It would be great to hear some different perspectives on this.

[RichieP]

I'm at ~12 years now, although I've had 2-3 stretches where I took months off at a time. To answer your q's:

1) My training got smarter. I dropped exercises that were just injuring me or I felt were damaging me over time. That included barbell squats (shock horror). Even with great form that I focused on for the start, they were simply not right for my frame. Back and hip issues and just generally straining so hard under that much weight doesn't do a body good. I also don't believe spinal compression under a heavy load is a healthy thing.

I realised which exercises actually matter to me, for strength and aesthetics. I dropped benching and overhead pressing completely.. Now I only do three sets of pseudo-planche pushups per week, and my front delts are the biggest they've been, and my chest still looks like I hit it regularly even though I do zero chest exercises. I work really hard on heavy rows, kettlebell swings, arms, and side-shoulders.


I also figured out some big wins:
- kettlebell swings for conditioning and iron-hard glutes, and stamina "in the sack"
- weighted chins and kettlebell bicep curls are IMO the best bicep exercises (yep try the KB curls , the weight offset makes them really effective... you can't "relax" at the top)
-Lying lateral shoulder raises. Add mass way better than standing laterals.
-Paleo diet + 1-2 carb meals after workouts = optimal for body recomposition. Fast in the morning for a few hours too before your first meal to amp up the fat burning.
-Removing sugar is the single biggest thing you can do to drop fat, without changing anything else. its not about calories, it's how sugar affects hormones that affect fat storage and hunger.


Another "training smarter" thing I realised is that there are many, many ways to get strong.

Yes big compounds (squats/deads/bench) will do it. BUT they are not the only way. Ask a gymnast to test his bench max and he might well crank out 2x bodyweight on his first try without ever having lifted a weight in his life.

Olympic lifters can back squat huge amounts despite never doing back squats. etc. I find I can still crank out 12+ pullups with ease after not doing them for years, because my dumbbell rows have progressed so well. Many ways to skin a cat... find what works for you.


2) Pretty much yes, although it's diminishing returns.

The biggest I got was about 50lbs over my starting weight. I feel like I was close to some limit of gains there - was really getting hard to get bigger or stronger and I was eating huge, huge amounts all day every day.

To be honest,you'll probably find that other things in life take priority for big chunks of time and you'll spend alot of time on a plateau, or only making very small gains, and you'll have some periods of backsliding, either because of illness, injury or other adverse events. It's OK though, muscle memory (wtf ever that actually is, but, the phenomenon is real) means you can re-gain in a fraction of the time.

Overall though the incremental progress adds up - I'm little bit stronger year on year. After 2-3 years of muscle gains, it's not a problem to keep adding strength, but muscle size is harder to come by.

I'd say try and get to your "ideal size" - the point where you've added muscle, look good and proportional, but you dont need to keep overeating just to keep the size on.

There is always an area to make progress in. Improving strength on a lift, leaning out, getting high-level conditioning, improving your posture. Size is just one element that makes you look and feel great, there are several other worthwhile ones too.

[Dantes]

I have been lifting weights 25 years, starting at 14
I had some periods over that course in time where I stopped but have been consistent over the last 12 years. I had two periods where I would classify myself as jacked, at 19 years old and at 33. During these periods I was
Not any happier. In fact, I got laid less and was more self conscious about my body.

I seemed to have plateaued but I am fine with it. I'm not jacked but I have muscles and my body is in proportion

It took me a long time to figure out the right diet Another issue is genetics. Mine aren't great for building muscles so I need to put mine in more than most.

The gym has been such an important part of my life for a long time. I don't understand why all men don't lift weights.

[Biz]

17 years since I first stepped foot in a gym.

If I could go back and talk to my teenage self I would tell him to:

1: Stick to the basics
2: Stay consistent
3: Don't waste your $ on supplements

[Ryre]

I feel much more mentally engaged in my workouts than I used to. Helps that I do more heavy compound lifts and fewer endless bodybuilding-style sets (or when I do, it is with a purpose).

A tip I think comes from Pavel Tsatsouline is taking your warmup sets as seriously as your heavy sets. Don't zone out or go through the motions. Use the warmup sets to practice your form; stay tight and push the weight hard, get a good contraction even though it is lighter.

Also good is avoiding mirrors unless there is something specific you want to watch about your form. Watching yourself distracts from what's happening in your body. I set up for deadlifts perpendicular to the mirror instead of facing. At the most I take a quick glance to check my posture.

[Ensam]

Been lifting for about 15 years.

Diet and sleep is more important than anything I do in the gym.

As Ryre mentions - I've completely gotten off of mirrors. I actually find them hugely distracting now and will cover them up with a mat if I'm at a gym and can't avoid having one in my eye line. My body awareness has increased ten fold since I stopped using visual cues as a crutch.

[rudebwoy]

1) How does training change as you become more experienced? Subjectively, in your experience. Age could play a role, but more specifically the factor of training for so many years.

2) Did you find you could/can still make muscle gains, despite potential decreasing with time, by always working to improve your workouts and nutrition?

18 years.

1) As you become more experienced you quickly learn which exercises work for you, in addition to frequency of workouts. 3x a week works enough for me now and that is my minimum, I would like to add another day but 5 days would be too much. I am older so wear and tear does take a toll on my body.
I have also hurt my shoulder in the past, you will find most guys at some point will have the same injury. Some exercises they promote aren't good for the shoulder, one exercise in particular is the upright row I believe its called.

2) Nutrition at any age is important and more so as you get older. Your body doesn't burn off bad calories like when you were a teenager. Lately I have made good muscle gains doing body workout, basic exercises like pull-ups and push-ups. I have never taken time of training although they highly recommend you take a week or month off every year.

[Veloce]

Excellent thread. Thanks for the insights guys.

I just popped a rib doing a 1 handed dumbell row. Too much body rotation. Pisses me off when I have to take a few days off but I guess that's all part of the process.

I agree about spinal compression. I do have some weight milestones I want to hit before backing off on squats and deadlifts though. I'd say once I can DL 2x my bodyweight and squat 1.5x I'll just stay there and hit the same weight for maintenance.

[Cr33pin]

(12-19-2014 05:07 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

1) How does training change as you become more experienced? Subjectively, in your experience. Age could play a role, but more specifically the factor of training for so many years.

2) Did you find you could/can still make muscle gains, despite potential decreasing with time, by always working to improve your workouts and nutrition?

18 years.

1) As you become more experienced you quickly learn which exercises work for you, in addition to frequency of workouts. 3x a week works enough for me now and that is my minimum, I would like to add another day but 5 days would be too much. I am older so wear and tear does take a toll on my body.
I have also hurt my shoulder in the past, you will find most guys at some point will have the same injury. Some exercises they promote aren't good for the shoulder, one exercise in particular is the upright row I believe its called.

2) Nutrition at any age is important and more so as you get older. Your body doesn't burn off bad calories like when you were a teenager. Lately I have made good muscle gains doing body workout, basic exercises like pull-ups and push-ups. I have never taken time of training although they highly recommend you take a week or month off every year.

[RichieP]

(12-19-2014 09:29 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

I agree about spinal compression. I do have some weight milestones I want to hit before backing off on squats and deadlifts though. I'd say once I can DL 2x my bodyweight and squat 1.5x I'll just stay there and hit the same weight for maintenance.

Yes, I feel the same way - I like the idea of getting to your chosen strength milestone in the big lifts, then backing off and maintaining. Those numbers seem pretty reasonable targets that will keep you strong yet spare your frame over the years.

I've been off the squats and deads for a while ,but I would like to at least get my deadlift up to a certain point then just maintain it there, maybe just do it once every 10 days / 2 weeks.

I've been doing pistols and KB swings, great results, but I do miss the deadlifts. Something about being able to pick girls up and toss them around the bedroom with absolute ease...

[micha]

It feels good to read about people who are with me on the squat.

I wanted to be a real badass back in the day and injured myself (ofcourse) doing squats. Even after that I tried to continue with it because whenever you read about lifting it basically says: "IF YOU DON'T SQUAT FOR TWO WEEKS YOU WILL DIE POOR, UGLY AND WEAK"

It took me a long time to realize that even the most applauded exercises aren't for everyone. Everyone is different.

Now that I'm closing in on being 30 years old I don't care anymore how bad I look at the gym. I do high rep goblet squats because they feel good for my knees and back, but not even those if I'm not feeling it on that certain day.

If something tells me "Don't do it", I won't. Whether it's a rep or an exercise. Back in the day I would have pushed and pushed, afraid of wasting a workout session because of pussiness.

I look good. I feel good. Why listen to other people?

[roberto]

(12-21-2014 08:56 AM)micha Wrote:  

It feels good to read about people who are with me on the squat.

I wanted to be a real badass back in the day and injured myself (ofcourse) doing squats. Even after that I tried to continue with it because whenever you read about lifting it basically says: "IF YOU DON'T SQUAT FOR TWO WEEKS YOU WILL DIE POOR, UGLY AND WEAK"

It took me a long time to realize that even the most applauded exercises aren't for everyone. Everyone is different.

Now that I'm closing in on being 30 years old I don't care anymore how bad I look at the gym. I do high rep goblet squats because they feel good for my knees and back, but not even those if I'm not feeling it on that certain day.

If something tells me "Don't do it", I won't. Whether it's a rep or an exercise. Back in the day I would have pushed and pushed, afraid of wasting a workout session because of pussiness.

I look good. I feel good. Why listen to other people?

I like your attitude. Most of us are not looking to be professional weightlifters, so why keep adding weight and risking injury when you're already in the top 10% of the male population?

That said, I'm not looking forward to the day I have to ease back on the squats. Currently only at 114% BW so it'll be a while yet I hope.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

I think there's a lot of good wisdom here, particularly on sustainability.
I started serious exercise about 24 years ago, and lifting 18 years ago. I have had multiple breaks due to injury and some poor personal choices.
I injured my back badly on several occasions because I always wanted more more more. Had a somewhat less serious elbow and shoulder injury.
Now, after a hiatus from exercise, I've eased back into things and listen to my body.
I'm also going to split my fitness into two parts.
One part being cardio and strength. I've already started on this.
The other part being dance or a martial art. I think it will be something I can do long term and enjoy. I'm leaning toward doing dance, as I think it would be good for game and social aspects. I'm thinking salsa or zouk.

[lovejoy]

I first set foot in a weight room in 1968 and have never really been on a break of over a year in all that time. What I have found from watching others is that much of the common wisdom for making great gains works great, but in the end kicks you out of the gym in your 40's due to injuries/wear and tear.

I'll be 60 in two weeks and for the last two years my routine is mainly body weight exercises with Cycling & Rowing for cardio. Since I started this routine I've had no issues of aching joints, tendons and having days I don't feel like moving because of sore muscles. I'm not a bulky as I was, but @ 185 lbs at 6'1" I feel better than I have in years.

[rudebwoy]

(12-22-2014 01:12 PM)lovejoy Wrote:  

I first set foot in a weight room in 1968 and have never really been on a break of over a year in all that time. What I have found from watching others is that much of the common wisdom for making great gains works great, but in the end kicks you out of the gym in your 40's due to injuries/wear and tear.

I'll be 60 in two weeks and for the last two years my routine is mainly body weight exercises with Cycling & Rowing for cardio. Since I started this routine I've had no issues of aching joints, tendons and having days I don't feel like moving because of sore muscles. I'm not a bulky as I was, but @ 185 lbs at 6'1" I feel better than I have in years.

This is exactly how I feel, no aches or pains when I do body workouts.

I wouldn't worry about weight if I were younger, over time weight will come.

For Cardio I play soccer, stairmaster or interval running on treadmill.

I am @ 197 lbs just under 6 feet.

[kosko]

The lack of cardio is catching up with me. I am getting tired and such very easily. Lifting heavy does get the heart rate up but it isn't the same as higher intensity cardio.

i agree with what older dudes are saying. Many older lifters suffer from bad injuries or their bodies turn to blubber and shit as it becomes difficult to maintain heavy levels of mass. Being strong and lean will be my goal for the long term but I do want to at least get jacked and shredded once as test to discipline for myself.

After I fucked up my back on deadlifts I realized the chance for injury is very real. I would rather take a methodical approach to strength versus stroking ego, it isn't worth it over the long haul. I already have busted knees and a busted hand from years of football and having anything more would be a real set back to quality of life going forward which is important.

[Santoro]

For the guys that have been at it 10+ years...what are your take on prohormones?

[rudebwoy]

^ never taken them. Don't see the need.

[Travesty]

The number one thing I learned is the more mass you put on the more you need to eat which sounds great a first but almost becomes a sort of curse.

Because of that I realized where I was natural gifted in muscle (legs, back, chest) compared to where I am not (arms, shoulders). I have prioritized and concentrated on resting up to PR for arm and shoulder workouts. I have found I do best with much rest. Maybe even a week to a week and a half between heavy lifting sessions. I did the 4x a week lifting in college and made newbie gains then spun my wheels from over training.

Other things take priority in life as the plateaus are harder to break and the eating gets to you. Flexibility, endurance, core etc... become more important as you get older.

Everyone I know knows I eat a ton, and I eat fairly clean, it still usually isn't enough. As soon as you get over 200lbs and are at least somewhat lean it really becomes a chore.

[Nascimento]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

I'm starting to realize more than ever that lifting weights is a lifestyle for the long-term.

I'm stopped doing maximal heavy sets and olympic weight lifting exercises because I have no intention or means to become a powerlifter or compete in any form. I don't regret having trained in that way in the past, it has been rewarding to see what my body is capable of. But I'm fortunate to know it is not sustainable. I want to be healthy in my 30's, 40's and beyond.

Also putting more emphasis in stretching, foam rolling etc. I'm starting to realize the benefits of this now and how it's never to early to start. Also making sure I get some cardio at least 1-2x a week, either some cycling or incline walking on a treadmill at the gym. Cardio is just as important as lifting weights, in moderate volumes.

[bacan]

How is cardio just as important? What are the benefits of foam rolling? Awesome thread guys

[Saweeep]

I've been training for 15 years at varying intensities.

Strangely, despite trying just about every workout routine and methodology under the sun I pretty much train exactly the same now as I did as a teenager.

[Giovonny]

I've been lifting for 26 years. (13 years old to 39 years old)

I wasted most of my workouts!

I never gained any muscle! (Until recently!)

I did too much cardio!

I didn't eat enough!

I learned these lessons the hard way.

I was young and uneducated.

Finally, in the past few years, I have learned how to build and shape my body.

(12-19-2014 08:40 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

1) How does training change as you become more experienced?

It becomes more specialized. More efficient. More specifically designed for your unique body.

Identify the exercises that work best for you. Identify the parts of your body that need special attention. Identify your genetic potential.. What muscles grow? What muscles do not grow? Where does your body store fat? What are your weaknesses? What are your goals? What type of body do you want?

The more you can honestly answer these questions, the better you can design your exercise and diet routine to match your specific strengths and weaknesses.

(12-19-2014 08:40 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

2) Did you find you could/can still make muscle gains, despite potential decreasing with time, by always working to improve your workouts and nutrition?

Yes.

As my workouts and nutrition have improved, my physique has also improved.

I didn't start to maximize my physique until I was in my late 30's.

(12-19-2014 08:40 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

how much muscle can you realistically expect to add overtime, given experience?

It depends on your genetics but..

I'll say:

5-15 pounds.

You can realistically expect to add 5-15 pounds of muscle, when you make an effort to do so, well into your late 30s.. After that, I don't have any experience.

(12-19-2014 08:40 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

What else have you noticed that improves/changes/needs attention overtime?

Sleep, stress, time management, finances, freedom, work schedule, family, flexibility, injury prevention, warm up, rest, enjoyment of workouts, boredom, burnout, proportion, muscle balance, fat removal, overall health, vitality, etc.

*****

A few more details about my experience:

-- In my 20s, I played so much basketball that I could not gain much muscle. I was probably burning more calories than I ate.

Yet, I still lifted weights for an hour, 3-4 times a week.

I didn't get much bigger. I just got really defined, vascular, and a little more dense. My muscles got firm and hard but not large.

-- I am not a big eater. I don't eat when I'm not hungry. I don't force myself to eat. This has limited my muscle growth.

Recently, I have learned which foods are best for building muscle, for me specifically. Foods that I enjoy eating, that I can prepare easily, that fit into my lifestyle.

I learned to cook a variety of meats.

I learned to use a slow cooker. This directly led to greater muscle growth.

I have purchased a set of glass containers with removable lids. These allow me to carry around healthy, protein rich food.

I have also learned how to stimulate my appetite.

[Beyond Borders]

^ Great post, Gio.

There are some real gems in this thread.

[zatara]

I've been lifting seriously for 10 years. In that time period I've gone from 6ft tall 140lbs to 6ft tall 220lbs - going from very skinny to quite built. For the first 4 years of that I largely spun my wheels, due to an awful college diet that involved going out drinking 3 or 4 times a week. I put on about 10lbs of beginner gains quite quickly initially, then 10lbs very very slowly over the next 3 1/2 years.

Once I limited myself to only drinking once a week, or once a fortnight, I put on 60lbs over the following 6 years. For me the biggest piece of advice I could give is limit your drinking if you're in anyway serious about gains.