[The Beast1]

I want to know what countries have banned paternity testing. I know France and New Zealand are apart of this. Are there any others?

[placer]

The Wikipedia article doesn't mention it being illegal anywhere except in France. I don't see Paternity testing as being illegal in new Zealand, to wit:

http://www.dnadiagnostics.co.nz/newDNAwebFAQ.htm

So, yeah, France stands alone as being the only place you can't legally get a paternity test (which Spain loves, because all those guys just have the test done there).

[Sonsowey]

So if you use 23andme it tells you what percent of your DNA you share with other members. You could just send a sample of your kid's saliva there and see if you share half of your genes.

23Andme also costs only $99 and requires nothing more than spitting into a vial.

Has France somehow outlawed independent genetics testing?

[rottenapple]

What reasoning did France use for making paternity testing illegal?

[placer]

(12-08-2014 02:14 PM)rottenapple Wrote:  

What reasoning did France use for making paternity testing illegal?

From the Wikipedia article:

Quote:

Any paternity testing without a court order is banned, due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by coexistence rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a €15,000 fine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_testing#France

There is one reference:

http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?page...-in-france

[mikado]

Yeah, you can get cuckolded in France, and the government does not give a shit.

A millionnaire guy was declared father of the girl of a former minister after she took him to court, and he refused to have a paternity test.
I think he is supposed to pay 2500 euros per month of child support . However he had 350 millions of euros in 2012, so he was really opposing the justice decision just by principle.

[Bad Hussar]

(12-08-2014 02:14 PM)rottenapple Wrote:  

What reasoning did France use for making paternity testing illegal?

Obviously I can't speak for the French government, but I'd guess that they did it because there is a conflict between the interests of the individual (in this case an individual putative father) and the state. Basically the state's interest is in children being "cared for" by parents, and not by them (the state). Add to this a fairly strong natural drive in women to cuckold men (in the scientific sense - pass off another man's child as their partners, not the porn fetish sense). I don't want to go too deep into it since I have many times before , and it gets quite boring, but it is probable that this risk of being cuckolded applies more or less equally to all men from "Alpha" to "Beta" and all points in between. It's just the nature of man, woman and...nature itself.

All this means that a non-trivial percent of children born anywhere in the world are not the children of the father listed on the birth certificate. Percentages mentioned have been as high as 10%, but who can tell. No one does comprehensive research because no one wants to know the "truth".

Anyway, some governments want to avoid the upheaval that results when it becomes apparent a woman has fooled her husband/partner/baby daddy. Apart from an obvious chance of violence there are all sorts of complications. For this reason they would rather just not deal with it, so they ban it. I don't think one country banning it is going to do much. A determined man could still easily find out. It's just that he wouldn't be able to use his knowledge in the courts.

If a group of men really ran the world for the benefit of men generally paternity testing would be mandatory. i.e. The state would not issue a birth certificate until a DNA test confirmed what was being asserted (that Mr X is the father). Yes, even in the case of married parents. But this is not the case. In my opinion France's banning testing isn't exactly a feminist thing. Its a bit more complicated. They are protecting themselves, and see themselves protecting children, rather than protecting cheating women. This is just a side effect.

[spokepoker]

Quote:

From the Wikipedia article:

"preserve the peace" within French families,
....
one year in prison and a €15,000 fine

What politician thought this would help keep families intact?

[Sonsowey]

That is obviously a bullshit explanation.

The question is, is a service like 23andme available in France? The service is NOT a paternity teat, BUT it does show percent relatedness by DNA identical by descent.

Has France outlawed this?

[iop890]

(12-08-2014 02:21 PM)placer Wrote:  

From the Wikipedia article:

Quote:

Any paternity testing without a court order is banned, due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by coexistence rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a €15,000 fine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_testing#France

There is one reference:

http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?page...-in-france

So, to be clear...

The man knowing whether or not a child is his? Bad. Could disrupt the family/harm the child.

The man being torn from his family, put in jail, and fined a substantial amount of money that could otherwise be used to support the child? A-OK!

[Bad Hussar]

(12-08-2014 02:56 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

That is obviously a bullshit explanation.

The question is, is a service like 23andme available in France? The service is NOT a paternity teat, BUT it does show percent relatedness by DNA identical by descent.

Has France outlawed this?

I don't know. My guess is that France probably hasn't banned 23 and me. They are likely more concerned that these tests can't be used in the courts, since a departing "father" would leave the state to take up the economic slack.

I wouldn't say that the explanation is bullshit, though. They probably really would like to "keep the peace". It's just that the world is bigger than any one country, and they don't run the world. The best they can do, really, is determine what can be used in their legal system.

The extreme penalties are revealing, and disturbing, though I'd be surprised to find that they have been applied even once...

[Sonsowey]

So who determines paternity then, whatever the mother says? Could she literally write "Nicolas Sarkozy" as the Father and he would have no way to challenge it?

[Grange]

(12-08-2014 02:47 PM)spokepoker Wrote:  

Quote:

From the Wikipedia article:

"preserve the peace" within French families,
....
one year in prison and a €15,000 fine

What politician thought this would help keep families intact?

(12-08-2014 03:15 PM)iop890 Wrote:  

(12-08-2014 02:21 PM)placer Wrote:  

From the Wikipedia article:

Quote:

Any paternity testing without a court order is banned, due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by coexistence rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a €15,000 fine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_testing#France

There is one reference:

http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?page...-in-france

So, to be clear...

The man knowing whether or not a child is his? Bad. Could disrupt the family/harm the child.

The man being torn from his family, put in jail, and fined a substantial amount of money that could otherwise be used to support the child? A-OK!

The thing about punishment being a deterrent to behavior is that sometimes you have to carry it out to keep other people in line. If you only threaten and never follow through, it's not really going to change peoples' behavior. The mechanism is perfectly reasonable.

I imagine the reason it actually is law in France is a combination of feminists wanting women to be able to get away with it and the French elites fathering kids to be raised by other men and not wanting any headaches about it.

[Quintus Curtius]

They want to ban it because they know that, if people really started probing, they would find out a lot about their supposed "offspring" that would be unpleasant.

It's part of the trend to absolve women from any misbehavior or any responsibility for anything. Anything.

They want to keep more guys on the hook for child support. And if more guys knew that their precious kid is someone else's, they would rebel. So it's all about keeping men in line.

Government intervention to prop up female lies and hypergamy.

Q

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

Clearly France needs the Maury show.

[Horus]

(12-08-2014 02:06 PM)placer Wrote:  

The Wikipedia article doesn't mention it being illegal anywhere except in France. I don't see Paternity testing as being illegal in new Zealand, to wit:

http://www.dnadiagnostics.co.nz/newDNAwebFAQ.htm

It's legal in New Zealand only with the mother's consent before the age of 16.

Quote:

http://www.dnadiagnostics.co.nz/newDNAwebFAQ.htm#q5

So here are the possible scenarios.

1. The father has reason to doubt the paternity of his partner's baby. The mother refuses a paternity test because she knows she has been unfaithful. He sticks around to raise and provide for the child, all the while with doubt in the back of his head whether or not the child is his.
2. The father has reason to doubt the paternity of the child, strong enough to leave/divorce his partner. The mother refuses a paternity test because she knows she has been unfaithful. He is never able to prove the claims of the mother that the child belongs to him. The courts end up forcing him to pay child support for 16 years. (The only exception is if he has iron clad evidence that his partner was cheating, in which case the courts could order a paternity test. Good luck convincing the judge).
3. The father has reason to doubt the paternity of the child. The mother knows that she has not cheated and that the child is in fact his. Mother is horrified that her man doubts her word and refuses the test with the support of the law. Man lives in doubt while raising the child. Conflict occurs and they divorce. Child is left without a father and the father has to pay child support, and is still none the wiser whether or not the child is his.
4. The father has reason to doubt the paternity of the child. The mother knows that she has not cheated and that the child is in fact his. She agrees to a paternity test. The father's paternity is proven. Family lives happily ever after.
   

There is no scenario where a father's doubts are correct (but without the irrefutable proof that would be admissible in court), prove his doubts are correct through a paternity test, and then by rights leave the picture. He's screwed in the first two scenarios if his doubts are in fact correct. And in the third scenario everyone is screwed - mum, dad and child - when a simple test could have solved everything. Isn't the well being of a child more important than a woman's feeling of being offended? It's an iron clad guarantee for a slutty woman who lies to a man in order to gain 16 years of resources. By most reasonable peoples' standards, that is fraud, although not in the eyes of the New Zealand justice system.

[Rawmeo]

In most juridictions, family laws greatly favorize the mother. Fathers are most of the time expected to just pay even if the child is not theirs. As far as I know, France is the only country where voluntary tests are illegal, however in some circumstances a judge can order it.

Paying child support for a bastard child must be the most painful experience ever.

[kosko]

That year in jail and 15k fine still gives a Man more freedom than 18 years at 70-100k in support payments.

Hopefully in that year she shacks up with some random dude and he gets hit and locked into payments.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(12-08-2014 12:57 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

I want to know what countries have banned paternity testing. I know France and New Zealand are apart of this. Are there any others?

Whether you can legally test your kid in one country or another does not matter much.

Why?

Because you can do the tests somewhere else and even if you find out that you are not the father & you are married, then you are fucked anyway, since according to law you are still legally the father. You can divorce the bitch, but you will be liable for child-support up until the end of the education limit - usually the age of 26 in most European countries.
In some countries it has no effect on alimony payments either.

But of course it has some bearing on men who did not marry and have not yet accepted paternity on the birth certificate. MRAs have been advocating for obligatory DNA tests at birth with an instant woman-gets-nothing-divorce for years now.

Never get married and think 10 times or make sure that you are really the father before claiming the kid as your own. Those are the new rules.

[Foolsgo1d]

It is illegal in france because half of their men are fucking another mans woman half the time. I wouldn't be surprised half of the children sired in relationships aren't the biological fathers.

French people love to fuck and oopsie daisies are common.

[Suits]

(12-08-2014 02:21 PM)placer Wrote:  

(12-08-2014 02:14 PM)rottenapple Wrote:  

What reasoning did France use for making paternity testing illegal?

From the Wikipedia article:

Quote:

Any paternity testing without a court order is banned, due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by coexistence rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a €15,000 fine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_testing#France

There is one reference:

http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?page...-in-france

I think I get it. If the child is born to your wife, you're on the hook, but if the child is born after some random hookup, she can get a court order to make you get the DNA test and then pay up?

[Rawmeo]

I agree with the mandatory paternity tests at birth. Simply an automated process where the mother gets divorced and not a penny for the child. A sort of "you wanted to make me father of a child that's not mine, then be stuck with your bastard child and take care of it yourself".

It is also a dumb idea to ban those tests, as most French citizens go to Spain to get tested. Just a few hours drive and you get legally tested.

Unfortunately, in most countries, family laws are strongly biaised towards women, even when the father is clearly in the right. Every man should be careful when signing the paternity declaration, even when he is 100% sure his wife was faithful.

[SlickyBoy]

It's not about keeping families (for the moment ignoring the reality that if hes not the father's kid, there IS no family) intact (if that were truly the goal, it's the first I've ever heard of ANY such desire by a western government), it's about passing the buck to cuckolded husbands so they and not the state pays for the child's upbringing. I would not be surprised to see this technique exported.