[Krusyos]

Well, if you are familiar at all with my frequent posts concerning advice for my future, you'll know that I wanted to study business/entrepreneurship. The Manosphere has made me reluctantly change my mind. It's simply not worth the money to study something that is non-STEM. My problem? I've always been a liberal arts "genius," and rather average when it came to Science and Mathematics.

I still have plenty of time to decide my major, seeing as I'm still a senior in High School, but I need your advice on what I should study. I'm leaning towards a computer science or similar computer related degree, because I love computers and have even dabbled a bit in some very basic programming (C++ and Java). I found a great deal of satisfaction even from creating simple little "Hello, World!" messages and small "Click on the Moving Clown" games. I don't know any languages, though, and that might work against me in college.

There's no way I could survive an engineering degree because of the sheer amount of math involved... I kinda cheated my way through trigonometry and don't know jack shit about sin and cosine other than the calculator functions (even though I'm barely surviving Calc 1 this year). Another thing that I've always been interested in is computer hardware, and circuitry in general. Again, however, the mathematics will kill me if I attempt Electrical Engineering.

Physics for me is kind of interesting-- I understood things quite well during my course and found it enjoyable to an extent, but I don't know if I'd want to just do that the rest of my life (unless I was unlocking the mysteries of the universe with Stephen Hawking or something). I assume most physics careers are of the f=ma rather than e=mc^2 type, if you know what I mean.

Chemistry is not my favorite. I'm studying organic chemistry this year, and I'm not too thrilled.

As for Health Care, forget it. No way I'm spending 8 years busting my ass in books and getting myself half a million dollars in debt. Granted it could be interesting, but I also want to get my life started sometime before I turn 30. It's not a very mobile profession either, I'd imagine, seeing as you'd be tied down to your practice or a hospital.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice greatly.

[Felix]

(11-01-2014 03:29 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

Well, if you are familiar at all with my frequent posts concerning advice for my future, you'll know that I wanted to study business/entrepreneurship. The Manosphere has made me reluctantly change my mind. It's simply not worth the money to study something that is non-STEM. My problem? I've always been a liberal arts "genius," and rather average when it came to Science and Mathematics.

I still have plenty of time to decide my major, seeing as I'm still a senior in High School, but I need your advice on what I should study. I'm leaning towards a computer science or similar computer related degree, because I love computers and have even dabbled a bit in some very basic programming (C++ and Java). I found a great deal of satisfaction even from creating simple little "Hello, World!" messages and small "Click on the Moving Clown" games. I don't know any languages, though, and that might work against me in college.

There's no way I could survive an engineering degree because of the sheer amount of math involved... I kinda cheated my way through trigonometry and don't know jack shit about sin and cosine other than the calculator functions (even though I'm barely surviving Calc 1 this year). Another thing that I've always been interested in is computer hardware, and circuitry in general. Again, however, the mathematics will kill me if I attempt Electrical Engineering.

Physics for me is kind of interesting-- I understood things quite well during my course and found it enjoyable to an extent, but I don't know if I'd want to just do that the rest of my life (unless I was unlocking the mysteries of the universe with Stephen Hawking or something). I assume most physics careers are of the f=ma rather than e=mc^2 type, if you know what I mean.

Chemistry is not my favorite. I'm studying organic chemistry this year, and I'm not too thrilled.

As for Health Care, forget it. No way I'm spending 8 years busting my ass in books and getting myself half a million dollars in debt. Granted it could be interesting, but I also want to get my life started sometime before I turn 30. It's not a very mobile profession either, I'd imagine, seeing as you'd be tied down to your practice or a hospital.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice greatly.

Math, or any subject, really isn't "hard" like you've been told you're "not good at" and so on. It simply takes time and effort to put in. Perhaps you don't have an interest in mathematics, but its certainly not insanely difficult to get deep into the calculus required for engineering.

In my mind business rules the world. You'll likely end up in some form of business field.

However, I did a business degree. If I could have gone back in time I'd have done some sort of engineering degree, preferably an Engineering Management program which blends the degrees (and eliminates the requirements for useless electives). Or do an MBA afterwards. An undergraduate business degree only opens doors if you have a decent internship under your belt, and I hear its becoming similar in engineering.

All I can say is if you're going to get a Bachelor's degree get one in a field that you can't simply learn reading better books online (such as management). However do you picture yourself becoming a mathematician, electrician or nurse? You'll likely end up in business. Learn a real skill that you can market, and 'management' certainly isn't one.

[Krusyos]

(11-01-2014 03:45 PM)Felix Wrote:  

(11-01-2014 03:29 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

Well, if you are familiar at all with my frequent posts concerning advice for my future, you'll know that I wanted to study business/entrepreneurship. The Manosphere has made me reluctantly change my mind. It's simply not worth the money to study something that is non-STEM. My problem? I've always been a liberal arts "genius," and rather average when it came to Science and Mathematics.

I still have plenty of time to decide my major, seeing as I'm still a senior in High School, but I need your advice on what I should study. I'm leaning towards a computer science or similar computer related degree, because I love computers and have even dabbled a bit in some very basic programming (C++ and Java). I found a great deal of satisfaction even from creating simple little "Hello, World!" messages and small "Click on the Moving Clown" games. I don't know any languages, though, and that might work against me in college.

There's no way I could survive an engineering degree because of the sheer amount of math involved... I kinda cheated my way through trigonometry and don't know jack shit about sin and cosine other than the calculator functions (even though I'm barely surviving Calc 1 this year). Another thing that I've always been interested in is computer hardware, and circuitry in general. Again, however, the mathematics will kill me if I attempt Electrical Engineering.

Physics for me is kind of interesting-- I understood things quite well during my course and found it enjoyable to an extent, but I don't know if I'd want to just do that the rest of my life (unless I was unlocking the mysteries of the universe with Stephen Hawking or something). I assume most physics careers are of the f=ma rather than e=mc^2 type, if you know what I mean.

Chemistry is not my favorite. I'm studying organic chemistry this year, and I'm not too thrilled.

As for Health Care, forget it. No way I'm spending 8 years busting my ass in books and getting myself half a million dollars in debt. Granted it could be interesting, but I also want to get my life started sometime before I turn 30. It's not a very mobile profession either, I'd imagine, seeing as you'd be tied down to your practice or a hospital.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice greatly.

Math, or any subject, really isn't "hard" like you've been told you're "not good at" and so on. It simply takes time and effort to put in. Perhaps you don't have an interest in mathematics, but its certainly not insanely difficult to get deep into the calculus required for engineering.

In my mind business rules the world. You'll likely end up in some form of business field.

However, I did a business degree. If I could have gone back in time I'd have done some sort of engineering degree, preferably an Engineering Management program which blends the degrees (and eliminates the requirements for useless electives). Or do an MBA afterwards. An undergraduate business degree only opens doors if you have a decent internship under your belt, and I hear its becoming similar in engineering.

All I can say is if you're going to get a Bachelor's degree get one in a field that you can't simply learn reading better books online (such as management). However do you picture yourself becoming a mathematician, electrician or nurse? You'll likely end up in business. Learn a real skill that you can market, and 'management' certainly isn't one.

Yeah, I don't mind math, but it takes a little while for me to do the problems and such. I want to balance my academics with social life/partying, and I think courses like Calculus 10 or whatever will really sap up all my time.

That's why I'm looking to go into STEM instead of business... it has real skillsets that will serve me well in the marketplace, not to mention high starting salaries. If I really feel the need to brush up on business, I'll take a minor in some related business field. I really want to save my minor for something I'm actually interested in, though, like History or Classics.

[zigZag]

My view is if you have to ask people "What STEM" Field i should go into then this field is not for you. Simple reason is that you'll spend many many many hours on homework doing math, physics and other hard subjects. It is something you should love to do. In terms of social life, though if you choose engineering you will not have a social life tbh you'll spend a good chunk of your time doing homework and studying to understand the material.

Have you ever thought that college may not be for you? Maybe instead of wasting time and money on a useless degree or wasting time and money on a field you absolutely hate, maybe delay college, find a job or learn a trade and work for a bit till you figure stuff out?

Alternatively you can just pick an engineering degree or whatever you want. Generally the first 2 years will be almost identical to the STEM fields and you can just do the general requirements and then decide which one you want to do later by switching your majors.

[The_CEO]

1) What do you want to do professionally (in 5 years/10 years/ etc)?

2) What educational qualifications do you need to achieve this?

[void]

(11-01-2014 06:15 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  

1) What do you want to do professionally (in 5 years/10 years/ etc)?

2) What educational qualifications do you need to achieve this?

How do you imagine your work day? What does it involve? Sort that out and then decide your future path.

[rangman2000]

(11-01-2014 03:29 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

My problem? I've always been a liberal arts "genius," and rather average when it came to Science and Mathematics.

Realise that if you study a STEM degree you will be amongst guys who are somewhere between above-average and genius when it comes to science and mathematics. The courses will be set to this level and you'll be competing with these guys for jobs once you graduate.

If you have no love or ability for science or mathematics then studying a STEM degree would be a bad choice.

You'll have a few years of studying and then a WHOLE career working in a particular field so choose something you enjoy and can be competitive in.

[Americas]

I have always been amused at the propaganda machine that people have built for the STEM fields. Yes, some fields within this broad spectrum can be quite lucrative right out of the gate if you play your cards right (ie. Computer Science and Engineering). However, degrees like Bachelor of Science in Biology, Chemistry, or Physics really don't get you anywhere without further studying. If you get a degree in one of the aforementioned, you will most likely end up in a lab somewhere making $20-25 an hour for much of your 20s. If this is the definition of a 'non-worthless' degree than that is a pretty faulty definition.

My advice: pick something you are actually interested in and kill it. Thinking in terms of "how valuable is this degree" is a waste of time if you have no passion for it.

If you are interested in humanities, consider the social sciences. A political science or economics double major with statistics or something could be just as lucrative as many of the STEM degrees.

[Travesty]

For a bachelor's only?

computer science
computer engineering
petroleum engineering
mechanical/chemical engineering with a focus on energy

With computer science or engineering though you can easily make a coding portfolio of your accomplishments and join local professional coding meetups and start up groups to find work. You don't need a degree if you are willing to put in the work to your portfolio, everything you need is free online for the most part.

For any of the maths, hard sciences, and all other types of engineering you better love the shit out of it and be going for a master's or PhD in most cases.

My advice is based off having a master's in computer science and knowing many other recent STEM grads.

[game_ethic]

Ok, I'm gonna give you some advice on Comp Sci. since that's my major..

When you get to college, take an introductory Computer Science class and see if you like it. That's what I did.

A lot of people stress being adept at mathematics to be a good programmer, but I find that not to be the case. It certainly helps to be good at Calculus, don't get me wrong, but it's not necessary. I don't consider myself the brightest in math, or at least not as good as my classmates are, but I'm just as good, if not better, than they are at writing code.

Here's what you should do. Pick a programming language that you want to learn. Start with Python, that's usually the introductory language students use at universities. Dabble in it, write some programs, and see if you like it. If you like it, take a Comp Sci. course -- you'll be miles ahead of the other students since 75% of them don't even know what a variable is. Everything in Comp Sci. comes down to logic.

Writing algorithms? Logic. You don't need any special math to write an algorithm.

Data structures? No special math.

Artificial Intelligence? Some math.
Nothing too complex.

Networking? Zero to little math.

Check out http://www.edx.org and take their Comp Sci. course. It's free.

A lot of kids that major in Comp Sci. didn't actually start out with any interest in programming. Most of them couldn't even write one line of code prior to taking the course; I know I couldn't.

[Praetor Lupus]

I'd go for something I loved doing that I could get a career in.

In your case, I'd go for the computing and study languages like a bastard in the run-up to the course so I was prepped and ready to go. If you've already done some simple stuff and understand the concept, this should not be beyond you.

[Deluge]

(11-01-2014 07:45 PM)Americas Wrote:  

I have always been amused at the propaganda machine that people have built for the STEM fields. Yes, some fields within this broad spectrum can be quite lucrative right out of the gate if you play your cards right (ie. Computer Science and Engineering). However, degrees like Bachelor of Science in Biology, Chemistry, or Physics really don't get you anywhere without further studying. If you get a degree in one of the aforementioned, you will most likely end up in a lab somewhere making $20-25 an hour for much of your 20s. If this is the definition of a 'non-worthless' degree than that is a pretty faulty definition.

My advice: pick something you are actually interested in and kill it. Thinking in terms of "how valuable is this degree" is a waste of time if you have no passion for it.

If you are interested in humanities, consider the social sciences. A political science or economics double major with statistics or something could be just as lucrative as many of the STEM degrees.

All the Science majors (Biology, Chemistry etc) I know are either scrambling to do post-grad studies or if they're lucky: Medicine, when they graduate. There's just no jobs available. Believe it or not there's more job opportunities available for Humanities majors, who can try for post-grad or Law or go work a bullshit paper pusher corporate or non-profit job or become a high school teacher. The only employment these Science majors could hope to find without a post-grad degree is working as a lab researcher like Roosh did, and even for those there just isn't enough positions available.

[xpatplayer]

Interesting question. Since it looks like you're in the United States, I'd say do an engineering major. All my fraternity brothers who did engineering have great oil jobs which pay really well.

Try to do petroleum engineering if the school you get into offers it. If it doesn't, do chemical engineering. Its difficult but worth it in the long run. You want to look at oil and gas jobs because this is one sector which will end up booming in the next 10-20 years. Just keep in mind that you will work your ass off for all four years.

Don't do pre-med because it's the same work for the same salary after 4-6 years, ie you will miss out on 4-6 years of pay and experience.

Unrelated but relevant - If you end up going to a tough private school, take the business route. They tend to flunk a disproportionately high number of students in science majors and taking the business route allows you to get in touch will alumni with great connections. Unlikely that you'll get a Wall St job unless you go to a top 20 school but there are plenty of other locations, particularly in NY, TX and FL that have jobs with 6 figure compensations for recent college grads.

PM me if you have questions.

[Menace]

The whole STEM STEM STEM thing is nothing but propaganda about the alleged shortage of scientists, so that more H1B visas can be given out, so that companies can get lower cost labor. The acronym itself is hopelessly confused (science, technology, engineering and math). Technology is not even a discipline. Math is intimately involved in science and engineering. Medicine is not even in there!

As for OP, if you go to a good school with a good science program, I'm afraid you're going to suffer. Even if you have a talent for it, you need to work your ass off. High school is mickey mouse compared to university level science courses geared to majors (i.e. not some survey course for arts students).

[Sandman]

STEM grad shortage is propoganda for people who need to sell content. Recent article in peer reviewed journal supports this.

Many of the basic science labs at Harvard , hopkins, etc have almost one third on average of their postdoc labor force as h1b or J1 visaholders from China or India. Seen it firsthand

We should vote for politicians who will minimize these visas as they negatively affect supply/demand for American job seekers

[The_CEO]

AI and robotics is apparently the next frontier that will see massive innovation over the next 10+ years,
which seems to dovetail with your programming interests. If that's the case, look into and see what academic training you need.

[LouEvilSlugger]

You usually can't go wrong majoring in applied mathematics, operations research or computer science in terms of both salary right out of school and variety of career paths

[Ensam]

No need to be good at math to be good in the sciences. Math is just a way of expressing ideas - if you're able to express them in other ways and surround yourself with good people you can get by.

Probably the best example I know of is a professor at MIT. She majored in liberal arts then went on to get her PhD from one of the top schools in the country for her field. Then shortly after that got a MacArthur grant. You could argue that part of the reason she's so good is because she was coming from such a different path than most of her peers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Belcher

In any any case, as others have said it's important that you be passionate about whatever it is. Otherwise what's the point? There are easier ways to make more money than you probably will in engineering or science (unless you're very good).

[Neo]

I'm of the RVF school of ABH(always be hustling) so I'm working 20+ hours a week on top of my regular job.

[Glaucon]

I have an IT diploma, but the good times in IT are beginning to end. No one cares about quality anymore, just costs costs costs!

I am learning now something completely different, hopefully I will be able to make a living off from that soon. Only upside being a DB admin that I have a lot of free time, and I can work from home 4 days a week, so I can hone my skills in the other area and getting payed the same time. But I have a feeling these good times do not last long...

[Travesty]

^ I'll say it again as I have in other tech threads if you want $, opportunity, and security in tech the way to do it is to become an outstanding developer (programmer) in something that is in need always.

Robotics
Firmware
App Development
Web Development

IT is much less stable for Testers, DB admin, "Systems" people.

You will always need bright people developing new complex software and software tools. These other jobs are more open to automation and outsourcing.

The big key is to become good at the craft and meet other skilled people so you can easily land high paying jobs or make a product.

[Grange]

You seem like you don't love any of the things you talked about. You don't necessarily have to love what you do for the rest of your working career, but how long do you really want to work in a field you can merely tolerate?

I was a lot like you at your age. Went to a great engineering school, hated it, transferred to another school to do what I realized I really was interested in (economics) and now I'm working on my dissertation. Try different courses out, but don't waste a few years on something that will make you miserable.

[oilbreh]

This is hard to answer, its too broad and only you can really answer that, we could give you some tips before going down road once you made up your mind
Re-read Neo's post every day, its great. Rooshv has a good article in which he talks about his younger brother trying to decide a major.
You are on the right track though, by asking here, already ahead of most of your pears. My school put so much emphasis on choosing the right/best school, without any one really putting much thought into the major. Smart? Pre-med, party? Communications. I chose mechanical engineering just cause I liked working on my car. I probably spent a total of 10 seconds thinking about it. Boy I was a silly cunt. It was before the recession haha, I remember my math teacher telling id make more money with a business degree.

[All or Nothing]

(11-01-2014 04:45 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

Yeah, I don't mind math, but it takes a little while for me to do the problems and such. I want to balance my academics with social life/partying, and I think courses like Calculus 10 or whatever will really sap up all my time.

That's why I'm looking to go into STEM instead of business... it has real skillsets that will serve me well in the marketplace, not to mention high starting salaries. If I really feel the need to brush up on business, I'll take a minor in some related business field. I really want to save my minor for something I'm actually interested in, though, like History or Classics.

If you are not that good at math, want to party a lot, and you want to get a good paying job out of college, STEM is not the right field for you. This is the truth.

-Math is a pretty significant part of anything engineering or math related. Science and coding involves a lot of logic/puzzle solving, which works out the same part of your brain as math does.

-STEM degrees take a large investment of time if you want good grades and to graduate in four years. This means less partying and more studying. Only exception to this is if you have 140+ IQ.

-STEM jobs are getting gobbled up by automation and artificial intelligence (basically: slow robot takeover), so relying on a STEM based job over long term is a bad investment.

Just want you to know this, so you have a good idea of what you are getting yourself into.

[Krusyos]

Thanks for all of your advice, guys. A big concern seems to be that I should only go into something if I love it. I really do love computers. Combining my manly calling of creation with computers obviously yields software engineering or computer science. Thankfully, the school I am almost definitely going to (FSU) offers both a BA and BS in Computer Science. I did some researching around online, and people say that the difference between the two in the eyes of employers is marginal. The BA will be great because I can spend more time focused on perfecting my programming ability while having a pretty easy time with the humanities associated with the degree. The math requirements are mercifully light, allowing me some free time to let loose a bit, not to mention, I'll hopefully be able to CLEP out of some of my Freshman classes if I get good grades this year. My boss who has some experience programming has also agreed to teach some some stuff. I'll probably get a minor in entrepreneurship or business.

Here's another question I have: I may have the opportunity to go to an Ivy League School (UPenn), but it may cost me a lot more money than FSU. I'm not sure, because Ivies often give a shitload of financial aid thanks to their large amount of funding. My dad just got a new job, so we're unfortunately not going to be dirt poor when applying for Financial Aid. Do you think the Ivy League will be worth more debt for the connections and huge advantage in the job market?