[sinnerman]

Recently Roosh had a blog post about diagnosing bad game.

Well I need your advice and help in diagnosing my game. I think in my last two encounters with women I pulled the trigger too soon before creating proper comfort.

At least that's what I feel is the issue but I'd really love to get experienced players' opinions and feedback.

So here are the two stories(Long posts I know):

Girl A: This is 19 year old very cute girl I met off Tinder (I'm 25). We clicked based on our shared desire to travel and love for coffee. After a two weeks we went out on a date which I had originally proposed during the first week but she was busy. She seemed eager to meet me during the second week. Things took off very well. She mentioned that her roommate was having a birthday party but she didn't go because she and I had already made plans and she didn't want to cancel. Now this girl is 19 so getting alcohol was bit of a challenge but we made to a sushi place where along with some food we were able to get alcohol. I made her try sake which she had never had before. While drinking I told her about my travels in Southeast Asia, the experiences I had over there and so on. She seemed very impressed by it as she has never traveled alone.

I introduced her to the kind of music I like(trance, house) which has never heard of before and it was all fun. She told me all about how she likes to drink but its difficult to get alcohol. I casually mentioned to her that I've a bottle of vodka in my car and we can go somewhere and have a few shots. She took me to her university hostel. On the way we were talking about nightlife and what she would do when she turns 21. The topic of stripclubs came up and she said she wants to visit one very bad as she wants to know it is like to be there. I told her that I've been to many and can get her in. Things were going pretty well. It seemed like our second date was already decided for the strip club and drinks at fun places in my city. Back at the university hostel she said she had to use the restroom. I said I needed to as well(I really did!).

She took me inside but was scared and kept saying she will get in trouble. I was not able to get in the mensroom without swiping the id card so
after she was done she let me go to the ladies room which was all empty except for me and her. I did my thing washed my hands and before she could open the door, I called her name and asked if she ever kissed in the ladies room. She smiled and I took her in my arms and pushed her against the wall and we kissed over there. She was more aggressive with the kissing than I was.

Afterwards we left the ladies room and she seemed a little excited a little scared which I felt was a good combination. She was saying she should never bring me in there but was still smiling.

Later we went to a cemetery which was inside her university premises and drank vodka over there. We started making out very passionately against a tree surrounded by tombstones. I started exploring her body and she didn't resist. We smoked cigarette there which she said was also her first
time smoking a cigarette. She said that she has never kissed any guy before without being completely drunk. I asked if that's better or is this better. She said this is so much better and kept kissing me. She later said this night is going to be one of those special nights as I gave her so many experiences that she has never had. I told her again that we can to her dorm room and chill for a while but she said no as her roommate will be there and that they don't have their separate rooms. There was
no way for me to take her to my place as I live in a different city about 25 miles away. We talked about plans for next week and she said we can meet up specially for the strip club thing because its in my city. Now this girl doesn't have a car so she is completely dependent on me if I need to bring her to my city. We were flirting a lot the entire time.

I pushed her back a few times saying that I feel like I'm spoiling you too much. She said no you're opening me to new experiences.

I kissed her goodbye and she said text me when you get home. It all seemed to be going perfect. Once I got home I texted her saying I had a good time with her and that we should meetup soon.

She responded back that she had a great time too.

Now here's where it starts becoming strange. For the next 4-5 days I don't hear from her. Complete radio silence. On the 5th day I send her a quick text about something I was making in the kitchen as it was something she was teasing me about on the first night we met. She responded back but somehow I felt like the energy was gone. After a bit of back and forth about how our day was I mentioned that I was thinking about taking her to the stripclub like we discussed sometime this week. She doesn't respond until the next day and says:

Girl A: "Aww I cant this week but maybe next week??"

I take my time to respond as well. Few hours later I respond

Me: "That's cool. I hope you're not nervous about going there though. haha. I think it will be a fun experience for you."

Girl A: "Haha I'm a little nervous but it would be quite an experience. I'll let you know when I'm free. Definitely can't this week though"

So I let it be after that. My question is did I push too fast with her and scare her off? It really seems strange. I was the guy who was opening her to new experiences and lifestyle that she has no way of experiencing and she was digging it. So after so much interest on the initial night where do you think my mistake was? What would you advise to do in this situation.

I dont want to come across as a desperate person but I also want to be persistent and seal the deal.



The second situation I ran across with Girl B. She is 25, from a small city in Mexico and has just moved to the US. Also met her online and got number. This one is strange as well because I had got her number a few weeks ago but had put her on the back burner as I was gaming a few girls in my own city. Girl B is also in the same city as Girl A and is about 25 miles away from me. She works as an Au pair(Babysitter/Caretaker) and her English is not very good.

One night I just send her a random text asking how is she and I tell her that I just visited her city a few days ago and its beautiful city bla bla bla. She responds back positively and we hit it off. I dont know anything about her but she is very open and says next time I'm visiting her city we should meetup. I ask her a little bit about her and we flirt a bit where she makes me guess where she is from. I tell her somewhere in Latin American but not sure but later I guessed it must be Mexico and she was impressed that I got. I told her I'm trying to learn Spanish and send her a few sentences in Spanish. She is very impressed more and asks me if I can help with her English and we can teach each other. It sounded all too easy. We decide to meet up the next day but she flaked the next morning saying she has to take care of the kids as her hostess is out for the day but she counter offered for the next day. I said that's ok and we text each other a little more and I try to know a little bit more about her.

Next day I don't hear from her till 3 pm so I had accepted that its a lost cause but still sent out a flirty text calling her my spanish professor and saying if we should have our first tutorial tonight. Around 5.30 pm she responds saying of course we should. We quickly decide on a place and she is there but I was late for about 25 minutes. We sat at rooftop bar and we talked little bit in English and Spanish. She said my pacing of English is good and she can understand most of it. I flirted with her a little bit but it got lost in translation until I explain to her that I'm pulling her leg. I ask her about how her life is here whether she likes to stay with the host family. She says she has a lot of restrictions during the weekdays but she is free during weekends. I told her to come to my city which is much bigger than her's and I can introduce her to all the fun places. (She doesn't have a car either so I offered to pick her up if we go out to my city)

We talked little bit about horror movies and she said we will watch movies together and she will introduce me to spanish films. She was very eager and excited as she was bored of living there with the host family.We talk a little about my travel plans how I wanted to go travel across South America and that's why I wanted to learn Spanish (inspired by Roosh's A Dead Bat in Paraguay ofcourse!).

We talk about food and nightlife in the US vs Mexico. Afterwards we shared a drink as she didn't like what she had initially ordered(and insisted on paying for herself). She insisted we share a second drink that I got for her and it seemed like major indicator of interest. She had curfew at 11.00 that night as it was a weeknight so we roughly spent about two hours together. She only had one drink as she is scared about getting DUI. I offer her a clove cigarette which intrigues her but she says not tonight as she has to go back but on weekend when she meets me she will smoke and drink.

It seemed to go well and I walked her to the parking lot where her she had parked the car(her host family's car not hers). She insisted that she will be fine walking alone but I insisted on walking her to her car. On the way to the lot I'm being a perfect gentleman making small talk not letting her walk on the side of road, etc. So we are in the parking lot and she hugs me and gives a light peck on the cheeks but I hold her and kiss her on the lips. At first she was surprised but then she kissed me back for a good 45 seconds. She then broke it and was smiling and surprised but also nervous I think and in her half broken English said "Okay I go now."

I said yea it was nice meeting you I had a great night. Before I could finish she put her hand forward in a gesture of a handshake saying nice meeting you too and we both looked at her hand and laughed.

I then walked off alone away from the lot.

I sent her a text saying:

"Hey Girl B, I had a great time talking with you tonight. Let's meetup soon."

She replies back almost immediately saying:
"Hey, thanks for everything. I had a good night. I hope the same for you!!!"

Next day no texts or anything from her. I wanted to build a little comfort so I sent her a text in Spanish asking how her day was. She didn't reply back.

The next day is Halloween and I sent her text again in late afternoon saying that I'm going to be in her city for the parade if she wants to meet up.

This time she replies.

Girl B: "Hey, hi, are you coming with your friends? I'm with kids now but I send a text more late "

Me: "I've a few friends but nothing's planned with them yet. Going to go to place XYZ for drinks. Text me if you get free"

I never heard from her for the night nor did I go visit her city. In this situation also I feel like I escalated too fast and scared her off. I feel like I should have waited until there was enough alcohol in her system or for a few dates after when she was already in my home watching movie or something and then make the move. What do you think went wrong here? On the surface I don't think I made any mistake except going in too fast.

Also more importantly how would you advise I proceed further in both of these scenarios. Both these girls are cute. I still have other girls in rotation but these two are just way hotter.

Thanks for bearing with the long post and all the help.

[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

Hey sinnerman,

Don't worry about apologizing for the long posts - it actually helps people on the forum answer your question better. I am still somewhat of a beginner to game, and to this forum, but I've been on enough dates like yours that I think I can offer something of a reasonable analysis.

In response to your question about diagnosing your (bad) game - I'd say that from what I've just read your game is more than fine. At the very least, you've managed to get the kiss on both occasions. This tells me that in these two instances, both girls were at least potentially open to the idea of having sex with you. Maybe not immediately at that time, but they were definitely thinking it.

I don't know if you've read Roosh's 30 Bangs, but in it he discusses the Pareto Principle and how it applies to game. Basically, as he describes it, 80% of your results will come from 20% of your efforts. That 20% of effort comes from three things - opening, escalation, and logistics. Opening starts the process and gets the girl attracted to you; escalation starts introducing physical intimacy and getting the girl comfortable with the idea of having sex with you; and logistics creates a viable location/route by which sex can happen. Your opening (I assume) and escalation seem fine in these instances - you've managed to get at least somewhat physically intimate with both of these girls, and you've managed to bond over shared experiences, desires, and interests. That's more than enough comfort, in most instances, for a girl to be open to sex. Where I think you've slacked off is in the logistics - and I think that's what the problem was in your instance. Without having logistics on lock, it doesn't matter how attracted or comfortable the girl is with you, or how sensual the makeouts are, or whatever - the sex ain't happenin'.

In the first instance - you're going to another city to see the girl. That, in and of itself, screams bad logistics. I think you were relying on the girl's place being available to escalate to sex (if you were planning on doing that) - which, too often, isn't the case. Once she drops the roommate card, you were more or less fucked. Even then - from what I read, you could have at least tried to push for sex in the ladies' washroom, or in that cemetery, if your logistical situation was sub-optimal. Beds aren't the only places where you can bang a chick (as I'm sure more than enough of the players on this forum can attest.) Girl A was hugely attracted to you, excited, and a little scared - that combination usually can turn a girl on like nothing else. If you have pushed even a little for sex right there and then in the washroom, I would have given you at least even odds you would have got the bang. Hey, it's one more experience she's never had that you can introduce her to

In the second - there was a constraint on her time (her curfew) which made pushing for sex unlikely. Sometimes we have to work under less than ideal circumstances, it's true. You did at least get the kiss where lesser guys would have just settled for that hug and peck on the cheeks - so that was, at least, a good move on your part.

What went wrong in these instances is not that you pushed too hard - you pushed just fine. Some might say you even didn't push hard enough. The problem is that your logistics weren't at all optimized for pursuing sex then and there.

The received wisdom you're going to get on this forum is that, on any date, you should be pushing for sex as fast as possible, to weed out the girls that aren't serious about fucking, and move in on the ones that are before external variables/events take them out. As you've no doubt come to realize, girls can be fickle creatures. The flaking/evasive behaviour you're getting sounds like classic buyer's remorse - the emotional high of the date with you was getting replaced by the realization that the only next logical step is having sex with you - which is likely triggering ASD (anti-slut defense) and causing them to push off meeting you. This is how girls who seem open to sex at first will shut down soon afterwards. You usually only have one window of opportunity - and it shuts down quicker than you might think.

In regards to what you should do now:
1) continue pinging the two of them at infrequent intervals trying to get them back out again. If they do, great. If not, move on.
2) (more importantly) read this thread if you haven't already: Tuthmosis' First Date Bang Recipe. This demonstrates what optimized logistics looks like.

So it's not that your game is bad - quite the opposite. Just work on your logistics - and be ruthless about escalating as hard, as far, and as fast as you can.

Cheers, and hope I was able to help you out.
rytech

[Saweeep]

Time and time again men get punished for not escalating enough when the opportunity arises.

I am 100% sure this is what happened with Girl A. Why didn't you fuck her in the graveyard? Or in your car? Or anywhere? She was clearly up for it. Did you even try?

This phenomenon is why you must ALWAYS try and get the bang on the first date. Always.

As for Girl B, I think you text her too soon twice; the night of and the day after. And then seemingly gave up.

Guys often make these mistakes with girls who are "way hotter" than their normal girls. You lost your frame because you popped them both on the pedestal of hotness.

The hotter the girl the more "don't give a fuck" your attitude needs to be, not the other way around.

Welcome to the game!

[DChambers]

Without getting in to text game, which is a whole separate beast, the main problem I see with girl A is that you didn't escalate. It is imperable that you strike when the iron is hot. Girls are far more forgiving of being too bold than of being not aggressive enough. A good tip is that when you end up alone somewhere with a girl who is obviously attracted to you always push for the bang.

Can't give much on girl B.

I'd put them both on back burners for now and try and game some other girls, then send them a text in a week or so.

[Catch 22]

Dead on. Her response is the classic, "let me see how it goes with this other guy and I'll fall back on you if it doesn't go well."

"Aww I cant this week but maybe next week??"

"I'll let you know when I'm free. Definitely can't this week though."

This is especially true with internet girls. Either accept that you're her backup, tell her to hit you up when she's available, and ignore from there on out. Or just tell her forget the whole thing and see if the dread game happens to work on her.

[Moto]

You've gotten good advise here, and it is definitely not congruent with your self-diagnosis.

I'd just add that you should have pulled away first from that 45 second kiss.

The fact that you would let it go that long with a girl you haven't banged makes me think you were too into her. She knew you must already be "in love" and so she already won, game over.

[Americas]

Definitely should have fucked that girl in the cemetery, she was probably down. Also remember with online game, these girls have dozens of guys lining up so the chances of her nexting you for even the slightest of reasons is much higher than otherwise.

[Nomad77]

Every time we don't see a girl again, everyone on here always want to blame the guy for not doing something or not doing enough or whatever. It's never just that the girl has just decided for whatever reason, and there's a million and one of them, that she doesn't want to see you again or just then. Even if he had bang those girls it doesn't mean he would have seen them again because a bang doesn't mean anything to a girl anymore. All of this advice about how long to kiss etc. doesn't mean shit. You could have done everything perfectly and still not see them again. I've had dates where the woman have told me after that it was perfect and what a wonderful time they had and ye, now, go fuck off because I've got new toys to play with.

These days you have to assume that every time you see a girl that it will be the last time you will see her because there is a good chance that it will be. Girls today have the attention span of a 3 yr old. Within 24 hrs she can't remember what a great time she had with you. Within 48 hrs you are already a distance memory. And with guys pinging her left and right from tinder, pof, instagram etc. she doesn't need to worry too much about getting another date. Think of it this way, you're a movie she's already seen. Who wants to watch the same movie twice? Not your average American girl unless she really likes that damn movie!

Here is what really matters: you did the best that you could, given your current knowledge and skill, and you and the girl had a good time then you did well and should be proud of yourself. You didn't make any glaring mistakes here and you can always look back on any date and say to yourself if only I had done this or that. But the truth of the matters is, you don't know and will never know if any of those things would have made much of a difference or even made things worse regarding whether you see her again or not. So don't sweat it. Just keep having a good time and don't have expectations of seeing a girl again. I know this is hard but that's what we are dealing with these days in this country.

[bigbait]

I think the majority of the advice on the forum is:
* screen for what you want i.e. dtf
* escalate
* lead
* lock down your logistics
* optimize your looks and style
* be incredibly fun
* have a great lifestyle the girl is envious of
* drink more
* give her a hint of what she wants
* be less into her than she is into you

You can break down each of these into individual components and think about what you can do to improve it. Then you need to experiment on enough girls to figure what variants get you what you want.

It's hard to get perfect advice since no one is there with you and the girl. And even if they were there it is hard to get good advice except from guys who have a very similar style as you. Sometimes you have to try a lot of shit to see what sticks in a new environment.

[bojangles]

(11-03-2014 11:20 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Every time we don't see a girl again, everyone on here always want to blame the guy for not doing something or not doing enough or whatever. It's never just that the girl has just decided for whatever reason, and there's a million and one of them, that she doesn't want to see you again or just then. Even if he had bang those girls it doesn't mean he would have seen them again because a bang doesn't mean anything to a girl anymore. All of this advice about how long to kiss etc. doesn't mean shit. You could have done everything perfectly and still not see them again. I've had dates where the woman have told me after that it was perfect and what a wonderful time they had and ye, now, go fuck off because I've got new toys to play with.

These days you have to assume that every time you see a girl that it will be the last time you will see her because there is a good chance that it will be. Girls today have the attention span of a 3 yr old. Within 24 hrs she can't remember what a great time she had with you. Within 48 hrs you are already a distance memory. And with guys pinging her left and right from tinder, pof, instagram etc. she doesn't need to worry too much about getting another date. Think of it this way, you're a movie she's already seen. Who wants to watch the same movie twice? Not your average American girl unless she really likes that damn movie!

Here is what really matters: you did the best that you could, given your current knowledge and skill, and you and the girl had a good time then you did well and should be proud of yourself. You didn't make any glaring mistakes here and you can always look back on any date and say to yourself if only I had done this or that. But the truth of the matters is, you don't know and will never know if any of those things would have made much of a difference or even made things worse regarding whether you see her again or not. So don't sweat it. Just keep having a good time and don't have expectations of seeing a girl again. I know this is hard but that's what we are dealing with these days in this country.

This is unfortunately true.

Here's my take on it

Girl A - I actually think you did perfectly well because I'm going to assume your only intention is to bang the girl rather than date her. You should bang her on the next date, the 4-5 days of no communication is the pull off. It works perfectly if done right.

Girl B - Bad text game and you left the kiss too late. You should be kissing a girl for the first time on the date not when you're saying goodbye.

I think your game sounds pretty good though.

[WestIndianArchie]

Graveyard Girl - Should have pushed the interaction as much as possible.

Restart on this girl is going to be up to her.
Keep the lines of communication open, but drop back on the texting/calling/contact.

Spanish speaking Au Pair -

I think you did better with this girl, but the problem is going to be her job.
Getting her out and having enough time to get her into bed is going be tough.
Especially if you throw alcohol into the mix and don't depend on raw game.

It may be counter-intuitive, but if she has the presence of mind to
1) pay for her own drinks (sounds foreign)
2) not drink too much

Drinking will slow down your lay speed.
The stars have to align in terms of
- how much she drinks
- moving her around
- her transportation situation

If you can get her out, it's going to be more about talking to her and using some physical escalation, rather than getting tipsy with her.

And if you're a player who can't get pussy w/o Patron, vagina w/o vodka, you're not a player.

Horror Movies, Roller Coasters...., thrilling dates that involve physical touch.
I would suggest dancing, but definitely NOT anything Latin, unless you're a God on the dance floor.

As for whether they reply back to your texts, especially after good dates, you can't fixate on it. The only time a chick is great with texting is when you don't need them to text.

WIA