[BootNootly]

Tradcons looking for fresh meat at the provider-beta factory always talk about how "for men, marriage is the gateway to health and wealth."

They point to studies saying "a married father makes an additional $14,000 a year in salary."

Of course they never talk about how the expenses of American beta life - the granite countertops, the huge kitchens that the wife demands ("we LOVE to entertain!") and will never use ("I'm exhausted! Let's get takeout!"), the overpriced real estate in "good school" enclaves, far outweigh the "marriage premium."

But this guy, Laurence Leavy, a multimillionare lawyer who trolls major sporting events by showing up in the front row with other teams' jerseys, gets it.
“I never had any kids, nor have any wife,” Leavy said when reached by phone Wednesday. “You don’t have to pay for a wife and kids, so you have money in the bank.”

For his moxie, he's been rewarded with fans.[/align]
Leavy said that after Tuesday’s game, he was contacted by fans around the world, which kept him up all night.

Full story: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/kan...rylink=cpy

I don't doubt that there are still guys out there who need a wifemom to help them get their shit together. But loss of discretion over how to spend your money and time is a huge price to pay.

[Brodiaga]

Don't know who this guy is, but think about this argument: "a married father makes an additional $14,000 a year in salary.". Even if it's true, it doesn't mean that getting married will increase your earning potential. There are many things that wealthier people are more likely to do: travel, buy more expensive cars and houses, etc. Just doing these things won't make you rich.

[dicknixon72]

That guy seems cool as all get out. Worked hard, good at what he does, has money, spends it freely, enjoys life. Emphsis on the 'enjoying life' part. What else do people want?

[BootNootly]

(10-26-2014 03:16 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

Don't know who this guy is, but think about this argument: "a married father makes an additional $14,000 a year in salary.". Even if it's true, it doesn't mean that getting married will increase your earning potential. There are many things that wealthier people are more likely to do: travel, buy more expensive cars and houses, etc. Just doing these things won't make you rich.

The type of man who gets married to his college sweetheart and gets a mortgage is going to gravitate towards boring but decently paid Dilbertwork.

So on average, yes it will increase your earning potential, as long as you're happy with those earnings going to everyone but you.

[The Lizard of Oz]

LOL, this dude is from -- where else -- FLORIDA, of course. Who would've thought?

And obviously, he is right. If you are making decent money, having a wife and kids will reduce your disposable income. The arguments that you would somehow magically become wealthier by marrying make no sense. The reason married men make more is that they tend to be older and more established, and also that many men who are losers and ne'er-do-wells are overrepresented among those who never marry. But there is no causation from marriage to greater wealth, other things being equal.

That said, most men -- the great majority -- are not made out to be lifelong bachelors, and this fact should be recognized and accepted. However, there is also a distinct minority that can thrive as lifelong bachelors, and more power (and disposable income) to them.

[Foolsgo1d]

In the UK there are studies which indicate a child can rack up a million pounds. The average is 100k.

People speak about legacies, about how single people will be lonely in old age and that its "worth it" in the long run. Funny how I always see and hear about old people being taken advantage of, attacked, left alone to rot in retirement homes or in their own home. And these people always had families, big ones too.

These people struggle financially because they couldn't save enough and Gordon Brown etc fucked them over by raiding pension pots. Children bring debt, my own mother put herself in life long debt to help raise me and my brother and we had a father who was working all the time and had a good paying carpentry job.

She is 63 years old and paying off her debt still. Fuck, that.

I have 19k in student debt and I have it pinned to my notice board to remind myself how toxic it is. University was a good time and I got my degree but the shroud of debt lingers. Its like being proud of owning a new car but you get it on finance. It hangs around your neck.

[BootNootly]

(10-26-2014 03:27 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

The reason married men make more is that they tend to be older and more established, and also that many men who are losers and ne'er-do-wells are overrepresented among those who never marry. But there is no causation from marriage to greater wealth, other things being equal.

Actually, the study adjusted for age. And they still found that fathers who live with their children (i.e. married in nearly all cases) make an average $14K more.

It's common sense that if your wife and kids are on your beta nuts all the time, you're going to cope by working harder and by choosing jobs more based on salary than enjoyment.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/10/1...y-bonuses/

[The Lizard of Oz]

Fair enough, but even adjusting for age, married men tend to be already more established, have a higher social class, and are less likely to be criminals, drunks, drug addicts or losers of various kinds. Having a stable marriage in the course of a lifetime is well known to be correlated with good social adjustment, so there is no surprise that it would also be correlated with higher income.

[Ensam]

I've had married fathers tell me they make more money because they'd rather be in the office than at home with a nagging wife and screaming kid.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-26-2014 03:58 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Fair enough, but even adjusting for age, married men tend to be already more established, have a higher social class, and are less likely to be criminals, drunks, drug addicts or losers of various kinds. Having a stable marriage in the course of a lifetime is well known to be correlated with good social adjustment, so there is no surprise that it would also be correlated with higher income.

I think the decision making, in general, is very different when you have a family to think about compared to only you. A bachelor may not be as focused on money while a husband and father always have to think about making sure his family is provided for.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-26-2014 04:00 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

I've had married fathers tell me they make more money because they'd rather be in the office than at home with a nagging wife and screaming kid.

My first job out of college had me working next to one of the founders of that company. The company had just gone public and he was a multi-millionaire because of it.

This project was a failure before I even got there. It was more about damage control by the time they sent me in.

After a particularly shitty day, I turned to him and asked him why would he be dealing with this stuff when he could walk away and never have to work again.

He said, "WWT, you don't understand, when you get married, you start looking forward to going into work every day." We had a good laugh but it was also obvious there was some truth being spoken that day.

[Pinocchio]

(10-26-2014 03:28 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

In the UK there are studies which indicate a child can rack up a million pounds. The average is 100k.

People speak about legacies, about how single people will be lonely in old age and that its "worth it" in the long run. Funny how I always see and hear about old people being taken advantage of, attacked, left alone to rot in retirement homes or in their own home. And these people always had families, big ones too.

These people struggle financially because they couldn't save enough and Gordon Brown etc fucked them over by raiding pension pots. Children bring debt, my own mother put herself in life long debt to help raise me and my brother and we had a father who was working all the time and had a good paying carpentry job.

She is 63 years old and paying off her debt still. Fuck, that.

I have 19k in student debt and I have it pinned to my notice board to remind myself how toxic it is. University was a good time and I got my degree but the shroud of debt lingers. Its like being proud of owning a new car but you get it on finance. It hangs around your neck.

student debt effectively doesn't exist in the uk, it's not recognised by any financial institutions nor does it show up on any credit scores and there are no penalties for failure to pay back. if the system doesnt recognise a debt it doesnt exist.

[The Lizard of Oz]

(10-26-2014 04:04 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 03:58 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Fair enough, but even adjusting for age, married men tend to be already more established, have a higher social class, and are less likely to be criminals, drunks, drug addicts or losers of various kinds. Having a stable marriage in the course of a lifetime is well known to be correlated with good social adjustment, so there is no surprise that it would also be correlated with higher income.

I think the decision making is very different when you have a family to think about compared to only you.

Yes, I agree, that would be part of it. And it's not easy (if it's even possible) to disentangle all the causes and effects.

Nevertheless, if I had to guess, I'd say that most of the effect comes from the fact that a man who is married is more likely to have come from a stable family, to be the kind of man who has a steady job, who is law-abiding, and well-adjusted to normal life. A man who is unmarried (especially never-married) is more likely to be a criminal, drunk, addict loser, idler, or oddball of one kind or another. I would imagine this correlation becomes more pronounced with age.

There is likely some of the effect that you mention -- that the very act of marrying and having a family changes the way a man acts and the choices he makes in a way that tends to raise his income. We have all seen examples of it, so no doubt that is also true. But if I had to guess -- and it's just a guess -- I'd say that this effect of direct causation is perhaps less important than the "common causation" effect I described in the previous paragraph. But I don't really know.

[PrimeTime32]

This guy is my hero. If/when I get those kind of funds I would be doing the same exact thing since I'm an avid sports fan. I know guys here say that following sports is beta but the reason I started watching and playing sports is because i enjoyed it and also it had the extra benefit of very few women being around. Overall pretty cool story and I'm glad he's spending his money the way he wants to. The article stated once he got out of a 9 year relationship with a girl who hated sports he started doing this. In my opinion this proves the point that most women are dream killers and no fun.

[Faust]

Even assuming you could untangle all the correlations in the statement "a married father makes an additional $14,000 year a salary," it still doesn't mean anything.
If you're spending more than 14,000$ a year on your wife and kids, you're still in the hole.

[CRR]

@TheLizardofOz

Great posts, and I remember your original post and I wholeheartedly agree. I have many married friends. I'd say a lot of them are very happy. Some are not, but we all could see that from the beginning. There are indeed benefits to being a bachelor, but I'd agree with the notion that we are more inclined to settle down (most of us).

My issue is that with all the criticism of unmarried and unmarriageable men, from articles on Slate to Atlantic to NYT, there is never discussion of the obvious, which is that there are a lot of unmarriageable women.

Women can try to force the notion that men should like them for their career and being equal in age, but that's just not going to happen. I have a good career. But I'll marry the nice, cute, mid-20s feminine secretary over the fat, obnoxious, mid-30s feminist lawyer. Of course those articles are often written by women who regret not settling down earlier. Now they are trying to dictate to men what they should look for in a mate. And most men, especially quality men, are not going to want to marry an angry 39 year old, a fat whale, or a woman with the thousand cock stare (or some combination).

Bottom line is, I'm in my late 30s. I still get attention from younger women (mid-late 20s). Should that end before I get married, I accept my fate and the decisions that I've made. But I think the conversation needs to be balanced, and women need to take responsibility for why so many of them remain unmarried.

[Enigma]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of the opinions in this thread.

You guys are making the mistake of applying this only to American/Western women. I think most of us realize that marriage is a losing proposition in the West and most of the "women" there can barely be classified as such. It's beating a dead horse at this point.

You're telling me a man with a traditional wife or girlfriend, who has all of his meals cooked for him, his household chores taken care of, and his sexual urges dutifully attended to isn't going to be more productive and efficient with his time than the average player/bachelor?

A successful guy who spends an hour preparing his own meals throughout the day wastes more time and money than he does feeding a thin, feminine woman. He spends more time and money chasing pussy than he would on a monthly vacation.

Also, the point about having more money if you don't have kids honestly strikes me as a little stupid.

I mean, it's a little obvious, no? You'll also have more money in the bank if you don't buy a Porsche.

But who ever said becoming a father or driving a sports car was supposed to be a financial investment? It's something you do because you want to, because it brings you some sense of happiness or fulfillment.

This guy can go to a lot of sports games because he doesn't have a family. I can travel because I don't go to sports games. Joe can afford a massive TV because he doesn't eat out often.

That's more a personal decision about your interests and how you choose to spend your money than a justification for any larger or more profound point.

Don't get me wrong, I don't plan on marrying or having kids anytime soon. I just think that this argument makes no sense when removed from the Western vacuum.

[Foolsgo1d]

(10-26-2014 04:13 PM)Pinocchio Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 03:28 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

In the UK there are studies which indicate a child can rack up a million pounds. The average is 100k.

People speak about legacies, about how single people will be lonely in old age and that its "worth it" in the long run. Funny how I always see and hear about old people being taken advantage of, attacked, left alone to rot in retirement homes or in their own home. And these people always had families, big ones too.

These people struggle financially because they couldn't save enough and Gordon Brown etc fucked them over by raiding pension pots. Children bring debt, my own mother put herself in life long debt to help raise me and my brother and we had a father who was working all the time and had a good paying carpentry job.

She is 63 years old and paying off her debt still. Fuck, that.

I have 19k in student debt and I have it pinned to my notice board to remind myself how toxic it is. University was a good time and I got my degree but the shroud of debt lingers. Its like being proud of owning a new car but you get it on finance. It hangs around your neck.

student debt effectively doesn't exist in the uk, it's not recognised by any financial institutions nor does it show up on any credit scores and there are no penalties for failure to pay back. if the system doesnt recognise a debt it doesnt exist.

Not yet it doesn't. People are owed money.

[SteveMcMahon]

(10-26-2014 04:00 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

I've had married fathers tell me they make more money because they'd rather be in the office than at home with a nagging wife and screaming kid.

This is true. I've done it.

Married life isn't easy. Especially when you have kids. It's a lot of hard work. Sometimes you'll be exhausted and worried about your job and your wife will be PMS'ing and sending you angry text messages saying the baby shat all over the carpet again. And you'll look wistfully at your car, wondering if you should just drive off and change your name to Esteban McMartinez. Or something.

At its best, it can be like starring in a buddy-buddy cop movie, but with less shooting and more fucking your partner. And with a supporting cast of awesome tiny people who give you the biggest smiles in the world and squeal "Daddy!" when you get home.



At its worst you might wish you'd just found someone you hate and bought her a house, and you might wonder how you ended up with a real-life Chucky doll screaming your house down because you told him to go to bed.



At its really worst, if you marry a psycho bitch from hell, well... look at poor Phil Hartman. Or to a lesser extent, poor Bill Clinton.

I wouldn't recommend marriage to anybody. It's too one-sided these days of divorce-rape, and there's no longer any stigma about raising children out of wedlock. I got married because I was young and stupid and it was expected of me. But if a man absolutely wants to get married, I'd give him some advice:

* You need game in a marriage just as much - if not more so - than when you're dating. Never stop gaming your wife. Women thrive on it. They will begin to hate you if they sense you slipping into beta simpitude. Then she will make your life a living hell.

* Don't let her get you into debt paying for a wedding. Don't fall for any emotional blackmail about her big day. If she insists that you splurge the equivalent of a deposit on a house on your wedding, that's a major red flag. Women say they want equality, so they can pay for their own £5,000 wedding dress if that's their dream. You'll probably have student loans to pay off, why rack up another massive debt before you even get your own home?



* Related - don't marry a girl with big debts. They will become your debts.

* Don't get married expecting you'll be financially better off. No married couple can live as cheaply as a single man. Women need a lot of shit to put in their nest. Kids cost a fortune.

* If she doesn't want to take your last name, dump her and save yourself a world of pain.

* If she has a fat mother, do not marry unless you're happy to wake up next to Shamu one day

* Make sure she knows how to cook and clean before you buy the cow. An incredible percentage of young women these days are lazy slobs, like John Belushi but with smaller tits.



* From time to time you will have opportunities to fuck other women, and you'll find that - women being the amoral creatures that they are - a lot of them are hungry for your lawfully wedded cock. What you do about that is your decision, but if you do bang some office sluts, be discreet to the point of paranoia and never, EVER admit to an affair. Nothing good will ever come of telling your wife the truth about that.

* Don't let your wife make major financial decisions, or you'll be living in a cardboard box and giving handjobs for cash within five years. Women spend like drunken chimpanzees who have been mistakenly issued major credit cards and then sat down in the front row at a banana auction. You're the man, so you set the budgets and make the final decisions.



* Women are unhappy creatures a lot of the time. They don't get happier with age. Realise that her hormonal mood swings are not a reflection on you as a husband, you can't fix it, and maintain your frame. Don't participate in female drama or neuroses, and when she acts out react with amused mastery or otherwise remind her you're solid and unflappable - she'll be thankful to know you're still a man.

* Related - women never stop shit testing you. Be ready for it.

* Make sure you keep treating her like a dirty little girl in bed. It's easy for married sex to become stale after you have kids. You need to work harder at that too to keep things going. A wife who is regularly banged is a more contented and less bitchy wife.

[The Lizard of Oz]

LOL Steve, f'ing great post, love the illustrations -- though I always think of Cary Grant rather than Jimmy Stewart for the paterfamilias pics.

[SteveMcMahon]

(10-26-2014 06:46 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

LOL Steve, f'ing great post, love the illustrations -- though I always think of Cary Grant rather than Jimmy Stewart for the paterfamilias pics.

Thanks! Cary Grant's a bit of a hero of mine. The guy was so sharp you could get papercuts watching his films. He made handsome look effortless, even when he was being chased by a plane. He's still giving girls gina tingles from beyond the grave.


Cary's friends heard he wanted to get married.

[Barry Scrotada]

Watching the Series and wondering what Marlins Guy's story is, I most definitely did not expect to find my answer on an anti marriage discussion on the RVF.

[BootNootly]

Quote:

There is likely some of the effect that you mention -- that the very act of marrying and having a family changes the way a man acts and the choices he makes in a way that tends to raise his income. We have all seen examples of it, so no doubt that is also true. But if I had to guess -- and it's just a guess -- I'd say that this effect of direct causation is perhaps less important than the "common causation" effect I described in the previous paragraph. But I don't really know.

Talk to some of the Old Economy Steve types who got married during or right out of college. They'll say things about their wife like "She changed my life," "She got me on track," "She shaped me up."

A lot of that has to do with the man marrying before age 25. If you've seen recent research on neuroplasticity, it turns out that people tend to become more set in their ways in their mid-20s.

Marriage is more likely to transform a guy from a sorta slacker into a provider beta if it happens at age 22-25 than if it happens at 30.

That's why the tradcons are so big on "young marriage." There's a window to get you onto the treadmill.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

What if your wife is just as anti-materialistic as you, and you save even more money living together than if you would alone?

I acknowledge that it is a very rare thing to find in a woman (or anyone, for that matter), but it's certainly possible to run a family without waste.

[StrikeBack]

My favourite answer to the married men making more money BS: "It's not how much money you make, it's how much money you get to keep."

Ensam Wrote:

You're telling me a man with a traditional wife or girlfriend, who has all of his meals cooked for him, his household chores taken care of, and his sexual urges dutifully attended to isn't going to be more productive and efficient with his time than the average player/bachelor?

Productive and efficient with his time for whom?

I'm more productive for my own needs than any married man with an awesome traditional wife. It's because that married man puts his wife and kids first, while I put myself first. You think your married man has time to learn a couple of languages on the side, or lift weights / play sports 7 days a week? I doubt it.

It takes more than one traditional woman to make that a valuable arrangement for a man. It takes the whole society to value the family man aka patriarch, to make the sacrifice of his freedom worthwhile.

BootNootly Wrote:

Talk to some of the Old Economy Steve types who got married during or right out of college. They'll say things about their wife like "She changed my life," "She got me on track," "She shaped me up."

A lot of that has to do with the man marrying before age 25. If you've seen recent research on neuroplasticity, it turns out that people tend to become more set in their ways in their mid-20s.

Marriage is more likely to transform a guy from a sorta slacker into a provider beta if it happens at age 22-25 than if it happens at 30.

That's why the tradcons are so big on "young marriage." There's a window to get you onto the treadmill.

This is very true. In my early 20s, I'd definitely appreciate things like home cooked meals, household chores being taken care of and regular sex with the same woman way more than I do now. As I now have cooking & chores down pat and have more options for sex now than I did in my early 20s, I simply don't value what a traditional woman brings to the table all that much.

Guess what, neither do any of you RVF bachelors. If you did, you'd be on a plane to some traditional countries, find a girl and marry her. You know where to find them, you have the datasheets, you know they're way better wives than Western women. Yet none of you is actively looking for marriage. Priorities