[thedavidgt]

(10-23-2014 09:09 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Its hard to find a decent image of how muscular and lean you can get without the use of any drugs. Often these fitness models use 1 gram of steroids from what I understand and fat burners. I feel that models the ones that claim to be natural, set unrealistic expectations in the gym. But they do sell product much easier to gullible guys like myself in the past.

I believe all of these guys are on something.



http://nattyornot.com/top-10-fake-natura...s-youtube/

Nattyornot.com is like the PUAHate of lifting. The anonymous author is way too quick to claim steroids, sets ridiculously low expectations (225 squat = good?) and is obsessed with genetics.

Nowadays it seems people underestimate what one can achieve naturally. It used to be that people thought Arnold and co. were natural, now the keyboard brigade calling out "fake naturals" has taken it too far and 180 lbs seems like an unreachable goal.

This might be an unpopular opinion but if a guy starts early (15-18 yrs) and applies consistent effort to his diet, training and lifestyle he has a good shot at getting as big as Mike from this forum, who is 6' 200 lbs (keep in mind, he is not 200 lbs shredded)

200 * 0.88 = 176 lbs of muscle

You might not "look" exactly like him, but the 200 lbs at 5'8-6'2 and 12-16 percent bf is likely achievable

[kbell]

Yeah I get that vibe as well. But he does write well and seems like he knows what he is talking about. But than again I don't have much knowledge about steroids effects on muscle shape. So I'm open to him to being completely wrong as well. And supposedly one of the meds affects skin thickness and graininess. And I wouldn't be surprised if youtube lifting celebrities lie about using the juice as well.

[thedavidgt]

(10-24-2014 07:35 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Yeah I get that vibe as well. But he does write well and seems like he knows what he is talking about. But than again I don't have much knowledge about steroids effects on muscle shape. So I'm open to him to being completely wrong as well. And supposedly one of the meds affects skin thickness and graininess. And I wouldn't be surprised if youtube lifting celebrities lie about using the juice as well.

One theory I've read recently that I'm not so sure about but makes sense is:

If someone is extremely strong while being at a low bodyweight they are likely natural. The argument is that if one were to both juice and hit impressive numbers it would be impossible to not to balloon up to a higher body weight.

Then again they could just be taking a low-dose or fat burners.

[weambulance]

I'm 5'11. Last time I was pretty cut--not competition bodybuilder cut but visible abs--I was 185 lb. At the same body fat levels now I'd probably be about 200; I've put on significant muscle since then (over a period of 6 years), though I'm pretty fat right now at 235 lb.

I've been athletic since I was a child, including competing in several sports, and I've done physically demanding jobs my whole adult life. I've never pursued bodybuilding, as I care more about strength, athleticism, and performance than aesthetics. So I'm this muscular without trying to become particularly muscular. I've never even taken supplements for more than a week or two before dropping them.

I don't have a clue how big I could be naturally if I really focused on bodybuilding but it seems logical that I could put on more muscle if I focused on doing so, possibly quite a bit more.

My build is notably different from the modern bodybuilder, though. I don't have huge arms, and my core is thicker and more muscular than the desired very slim-waisted and tapered look.

I do think a lot of guys are on the juice, not because of how they look necessarily but how fast they got there. However, I don't particularly care. It's not like my own looks and build have gone over poorly with women, and I'm not the type to spend a lot of time admiring myself in the mirror, so who cares what other guys do? I just think it's lame that they lie.


Edit: I'm in my very late 20s, by the way.

[rhodey]

(10-23-2014 09:09 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Its hard to find a decent image of how muscular and lean you can get without the use of any drugs. Often these fitness models use 1 gram of steroids from what I understand and fat burners. I feel that models the ones that claim to be natural, set unrealistic expectations in the gym. But they do sell product much easier to gullible guys like myself in the past.

I believe all of these guys are on something.



http://nattyornot.com/top-10-fake-natura...s-youtube/

Tough too answer but it probably varies wisely based on individual genetics.

Ronnie Coleman pre steroids:






Dorian yates Before and after



Current Mr Olmypia before and after:

[Hades]

(10-24-2014 05:51 PM)berserk Wrote:  

Sure thing, but genetics do factor into it. Eder could be natural as could be many others on that Natty or Not site. We're only seeing top 1% anyway, since no one makes it to the top of bodybuilding, juicing or not, without genetic gifts. What would be more interesting is to see the average lifter back then. Dips are an excellent pec builder, so that alone probably set him apart.

My beef with steroids is mostly that I find it stupid that guys in the west feel the need to join an arms race of juicing to compete for mediocre women, when a skinny Russian in ill fitting clothes can land a better girl without.

No doubt, the guy was highly competitive in more than one strength field in his early 20s. He definitely had great genetics. Even considering that if a guy made notes on what Eder did, and put himself through that much suffering in workouts, he would probably look similar after six intense years of lifting.

I am thinking about doing something similar with a death by dips session every Sunday for like eight hours at a crack. It would be cool to get more swole in the upper body.

Agreed that it's better overseas, women wise. I would never consider doing steroids to get laid, even if it worked. That's pushing the envelope too far. TRT sounds like good shit for middle aged players but I don't have to worry about that for a long while.

(10-24-2014 07:23 PM)thedavidgt Wrote:  

Nattyornot.com is like the PUAHate of lifting. The anonymous author is way too quick to claim steroids, sets ridiculously low expectations (225 squat = good?) and is obsessed with genetics.

Well put.

[scorpion]

As a general rule of thumb, it's rare to see a natural guy with low body fat who is jacked at over 220 lbs. This is assuming relatively normal proportions (i.e. the guy isn't 6'5"+ or with a really thick frame). Even a lean 200 lbs. natural isn't terribly common, although far from impossible. I am 6' and hover between 205-210 lbs. at 12% bf. Natural and have been lifting for over a decade. I rarely see normally proportioned guys bigger and more cut than me who I don't suspect of juicing. At a certain point your body just doesn't want to put on any extra muscle unless you "hack" your system with some artificial enhancement. The exceptions to this rule are the genetic 1%ers who are highly overrepresented in pro athletics, although even there you obviously see a ton of steroid use.

But really, who cares? If I wanted to use steroids I would. I don't have any moral objection to them whatsoever. I will strongly consider getting on TRT at some point down the road, but feel no need for that yet. There's no point worrying about who is natural and who is not. Just train hard, eat right, sleep enough and otherwise maximize your fitness. Take care of your body and it will take care of you. Worry less about what other guys are doing and more about what you are doing.

[RickyGP]

From the same website in the OP:

http://nattyornot.com/top-5-youtube-chan...ybuilders/

[Hades]

Yeah, here's a laugh.

http://nattyornot.com/controversial-inte...dybuilder/