[worldwidetraveler]

(01-02-2015 12:01 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

I'm afraid we just don't agree, except on the exercise part. Correlation is not equal to causation. I could take 100 depressed patients, and tell them to wear a purple colored magic copper bracelet that cures depression...and guess what? 2 months later some of them would be cured!!!

My information comes from a peer reviewed article,

Well, my information comes from using anti-depressants a long time ago and they do work. I didn't like the feeling after some time and sought out better ways of dealing with it. Anti-depressants are not a cure. They are suppose to help ease out of bad depressing episodes. Something that may not be needed for long periods of time. I do think they are over prescribed and probably prescribed to people with normal depression which I couldn't imagine being a good idea.

[monster]

Anyone can search PubMed and quote a study abstract, and because you found one meta-analysis done 6 years ago does not mean much, especially considering that when one study comes out the next day another study comes out contradicting it, and so on and so on. Ah, statistics...

To say that antidepressants don't work on neurotransmitters is preposterous as well. That's their mechanism of action - they increase or decrease neurotransmitters through blocking their uptake, etc.

They don't work for everyone, and they're over-prescribed, and Big Pharma is not altogether altrustic in their R&D, but antidepressants have value to a lot of people.

It's hard for someone who has never been depressed before and who has had them work to understand though. But they're much more than a purple bracelet placebo effect (the analogy you used) for many people. Not a magic pill, but they have some degree of effectiveness.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(01-02-2015 03:51 PM)monster Wrote:  

Anyone can search PubMed and quote a study abstract, and because you found one meta-analysis done 6 years ago does not mean much, especially considering that when one study comes out the next day another study comes out contradicting it, and so on and so on. Ah, statistics...

To say that antidepressants don't work on neurotransmitters is preposterous as well. That's their mechanism of action - they increase or decrease neurotransmitters through blocking their uptake, etc.

They don't work for everyone, and they're over-prescribed, and Big Pharma is not altogether altrustic in their R&D, but antidepressants have value to a lot of people.

It's hard for someone who has never been depressed before and who has had them work to understand though. But they're much more than a purple bracelet placebo effect (the analogy you used) for many people. Not a magic pill, but they have some degree of effectiveness.

Again, I disagree.
It is true that anti depressants affect the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. However, it is not true and not scientifically proven than an "imbalance" of these neurotransmitters is what causes depression, let alone that imprecisely manipulating the levels of 1 or 2 or 3 of them can "cure" depression.
There has been a vast increase in the number of anti depressant prescriptions in many western countries over the past couple decades. Yet, there has not been any corresponding decrease in the suicide rate, which is the one statistical measure of mental illness/mood disorders that is relatively easy to measure and also serves as a bellwether for general mental health (much the same way that the number of murders per capita is a good general statistical measure for a wide variety of crime).
The best evidence seems to indicate that anti depressants are no more effective than placebo in most cases. Note, that effectiveness here is limited to the very narrow question of slightly improving Hamilton scores, and not on any meaningful measure of functionality or physical well being.
Even the limited effectiveness of anti depressants in a small subset of severe cases does NOT take into account the negative effects of anti depressants.
They can cause suicides, worsen people's moods, and cause a host of physical ailments including erectile dysfunction, high blood pressure, and weight gain.
They offer no benefit to society and are not effective medicine.
Most people in fact would be better off wearing that purple bracelet, if that was what it took to give them the psychological strength necessary to exercise and eat properly, which are the only things that will actually improve depression and create lasting health.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-04-2015 07:54 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(01-02-2015 03:51 PM)monster Wrote:  

Anyone can search PubMed and quote a study abstract, and because you found one meta-analysis done 6 years ago does not mean much, especially considering that when one study comes out the next day another study comes out contradicting it, and so on and so on. Ah, statistics...

To say that antidepressants don't work on neurotransmitters is preposterous as well. That's their mechanism of action - they increase or decrease neurotransmitters through blocking their uptake, etc.

They don't work for everyone, and they're over-prescribed, and Big Pharma is not altogether altrustic in their R&D, but antidepressants have value to a lot of people.

It's hard for someone who has never been depressed before and who has had them work to understand though. But they're much more than a purple bracelet placebo effect (the analogy you used) for many people. Not a magic pill, but they have some degree of effectiveness.

Again, I disagree.
It is true that anti depressants affect the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. However, it is not true and not scientifically proven than an "imbalance" of these neurotransmitters is what causes depression, let alone that imprecisely manipulating the levels of 1 or 2 or 3 of them can "cure" depression.
There has been a vast increase in the number of anti depressant prescriptions in many western countries over the past couple decades. Yet, there has not been any corresponding decrease in the suicide rate, which is the one statistical measure of mental illness/mood disorders that is relatively easy to measure and also serves as a bellwether for general mental health (much the same way that the number of murders per capita is a good general statistical measure for a wide variety of crime).
The best evidence seems to indicate that anti depressants are no more effective than placebo in most cases. Note, that effectiveness here is limited to the very narrow question of slightly improving Hamilton scores, and not on any meaningful measure of functionality or physical well being.
Even the limited effectiveness of anti depressants in a small subset of severe cases does NOT take into account the negative effects of anti depressants.
They can cause suicides, worsen people's moods, and cause a host of physical ailments including erectile dysfunction, high blood pressure, and weight gain.
They offer no benefit to society and are not effective medicine.
Most people in fact would be better off wearing that purple bracelet, if that was what it took to give them the psychological strength necessary to exercise and eat properly, which are the only things that will actually improve depression and create lasting health.

VVV have you taken any anti-depressants? You seem to gloss over whatever doesn't fit your narrative.

I have taken them. I have experienced them. What about you?

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(01-05-2015 06:52 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

VVV have you taken any anti-depressants? You seem to gloss over whatever doesn't fit your narrative.

I have taken them. I have experienced them. What about you?

Personal anecdotes are the antithesis of hundreds of years of progress in science and medicine. The development of the scientific method and the use of truly double blind placebo based studies have been highly beneficial for mankind. Unfortunately the process has been massively corrupted, but eventually the truth comes out.
Whether I have taken zero, 1, or many anti depressants, and whether they have been harmful, neutral, or positive, in my subjective experience, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they are actually an effective medication.
Correlation is very different from causation, and to know when something is one, and when something is the other, you need to precisely control all variables, and have measurable outcomes.

[worldwidetraveler]

Like I said, you gloss over anything that doesn't fit your narrative. Instead of just coming out with a no or yes, you had to try and dance around the issue.

You read about stuff while others experience it and make up their minds based on those experiences.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(01-05-2015 09:24 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Like I said, you gloss over anything that doesn't fit your narrative. Instead of just coming out with a no or yes, you had to try and dance around the issue.

You read about stuff while others experience it and make up their minds based on those experiences.

Feel free to take your erectile dysfunction causing heart destroying dementia inducing placebo pills.
Really, it's a free world, do what you want.
And FYI, since it will qualify me as an internet PHD/MD in your eyes - yes, I have tried several anti depressants. The docs that peddle them have their heads up their asses, and experiment with different cocktails of meds on different patients because they have no scientific guidelines to operate on, because there aren't any.
Psychiatrists fit into 3 different categories for why they end up in that field: 1. they are mentally ill or had a close family member who is/was, 2. they weren't good enough to match into more competitive specialties like radiology, anesthesiology, surgery, etc. 3. they got to the 3rd year clinical rotations in med school and found out they were too much of a pussy to handle hospital based patient contacts.
If you ask them about the 2008 research and subsequent major confirmations of that research, they will evade the issue, and always will end up saying "they work because I have seen them work." Note, this is NOT how science works.
The doctors are bullshit, the meds are bullshit.
The chemical imbalance theory of depression has no scientific basis whatsoever, yet it is continually presented as fact.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-05-2015 10:37 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(01-05-2015 09:24 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Like I said, you gloss over anything that doesn't fit your narrative. Instead of just coming out with a no or yes, you had to try and dance around the issue.

You read about stuff while others experience it and make up their minds based on those experiences.

Feel free to take your erectile dysfunction causing heart destroying dementia inducing placebo pills.
Really, it's a free world, do what you want.
And FYI, since it will qualify me as an internet PHD/MD in your eyes - yes, I have tried several anti depressants. The docs that peddle them have their heads up their asses, and experiment with different cocktails of meds on different patients because they have no scientific guidelines to operate on, because there aren't any.
Psychiatrists fit into 3 different categories for why they end up in that field: 1. they are mentally ill or had a close family member who is/was, 2. they weren't good enough to match into more competitive specialties like radiology, anesthesiology, surgery, etc. 3. they got to the 3rd year clinical rotations in med school and found out they were too much of a pussy to handle hospital based patient contacts.
If you ask them about the 2008 research and subsequent major confirmations of that research, they will evade the issue, and always will end up saying "they work because I have seen them work." Note, this is NOT how science works.
The doctors are bullshit, the meds are bullshit.
The chemical imbalance theory of depression has no scientific basis whatsoever, yet it is continually presented as fact.

I know a few others that took them and they all had the same responses as I did. Now maybe people with normal depression wouldn't find the same response as people who have more clinical depression.

I don't know but I do know for me it was a godsend at the time I took it.

Funny how you try to make it sound like I was on some placebo.

The side effects that I had when I first got on them and then I ended up quitting cold turkey and was ill from that. I just made up all of that stuff even though no one told me about quitting cold turkey isn't advisable because of what I experienced.

Here you are trying to tell me that I and others like me didn't actually experience anti-depressants but it was merely a placebo. GTFO.

I work out regularly and haven't had a bout in a long time. No need for meds but I do know what to look for when it comes to depression. Cravings for alcohol/chocolate while also feeling twitchy tells me I need to get a workout in. I'm sure that is all placebo as well.

We will just have to disagree.