[Mujeriego]

In the appetizer thread there were comments regarding making out being a bad metric for how well the date went. I've found the opposite to be true. If I'm on a date and making out, more often than not she winds up in my bed at the end of the night. I'm curious what other player's experiences are.

[Travesty]

I go against Tuth's bang recipe and have before ever reading RVF, I go for a hard makeout in venue 1 or 2 with little to no escalation beforehand.

I just feel when she is close enough and is laughing and smiling enough. Blood is in the water. I've done it while arm wrestling, middle of a pool shot, under mistletoe, all sorts of strange times and situations.

Kiss them when they are laughing they are defenseless.

After the first hard makeout I grope as much as I can get away with. I do this soon after the hard makeout while she is still in la-la land.

At this point it's time for a shot and to bounce.

I never understood slow escalation, hand to leg to hip etc...

The more passionate the makeout the more likely she is in my bed at the end of the night or on a date 2 with little resistance.

It makes girls horny they are surprised. It's bold especially in a crowded bar etc... especially if you go hard her emotions are in a whirlwind.

When you pull away first and her eyes are still closed and she softly bites her bottom lip like she had the best fucking ice cream on the planet you are doing it right.

Maybe this is good looking guy game I don't know.

[kinjutsu]

It all depends on the girl you're with a vibe you have together.

I've fucked girls in fitting rooms of clothing stores within 2hrs of meeting them. I've also had this backfire on me.

Depending on the type of girl you can get away with more or less physically in the first meet up.

[AneroidOcean]

(10-08-2014 12:38 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

When you pull away first and her eyes are still closed and she softly bites her bottom lip like she had the best fucking ice cream on the planet you are doing it right.

I think a lot of guys don't know how to kiss that well. One of the things women love to do with me (and I with them) is kiss.

I agree that timing on a kiss is critical, but I don't think it has to do necessarily with what specific venue, amount of time, etc... You can tell when a girl is into you and I especially like kissing them in the transition between laughing/smiling to what would normally be the next lull or spike in the conversation.

While I try to shy away from PDA (this doesn't mean no kissing in public, it means not kissing when people are around or you're in a crowd), I seriously love kissing girls. When a girl has nice lips and you know what you're doing, it's incredibly erotic for both parties. I can't remember the last time I didn't pull away from a good kiss and the girl was just beaming.

A girl who can't kiss is such a turn off. I kiss deeply/passionately during sex too. Not all the time, but girls do seem to like it.

[tylerdurden1993]

I prefer going for the makeout in private. I like doing this because if she's agreed to be alone with you in private (after a date) she obviously likes you and so she's expecting you to try something.

Also it means the first time I kiss her I can escalate pretty fast to sex (which I do) which I think catches them off guard and means they don't have too much time to think about the fact that she's only met you for the first time. And the first time you kiss her you can get quite passionate and have sex right away as you are in private.

Also as Tuth says in the first bang recipe you can give girls plausible deniability if you don't kiss in the venue as she can say afterwards i was only expecting to makeout at yours and got carried away, as nothing sexual happened between you at that point.

[heavy]

I've a history of bad kino...my family wasn't touchy feely or the hugging type, and neither am I.

So yes, I agree with Travesty444...I should say, I agree with early, gradual, kino building, which might involve kiss or makeout.

The key is to turn her on with a natural (ie consistent) buildup. My error has come with little/no kino, then makeout attempt at home...which never goes well because she hasn't been prepped.

[Nomad77]

I think the important thing is how you feel about whatever you are doing. If you feel uncomfortable doing anything you will transmit to the girl and then she will become uncomfortable. Sometimes, it's better to not to go slow and just jump in because then you don't think about it too much and get nervous but that can also spook a girl.

[Noir]

Always.

Always the first to pull out during kiss.

Always the first to act like I am going to kiss and pull out.

So many variables will affect this but if you draw her into the me&you bubble then it's a no brainer because it is natural.

If you are kissing because it feels like an 'escalation checklist' then you're doing it wrong.

[MrXY]

This is an important part of my game; I want to kiss a girl sometime between 40% to 65% of the elapsed time of the date, depending on the vibe and the circumstances.

First kiss: I call this "breaking the barrier" -I want to shatter that plane of polite social distance between us and make her understand that I am a sexual man and have sexual intentions toward her that night. This may occur at the first venue or at the second. Normally, I do it right at the bar. I pick a moment when we are at a peak of vibing and she is giving me "that look". Not a "kiss me" look necessarily , but her eyes are shining and she is looking at my face with obvious attraction. Girls are typically surprised and pleased at the boldness, and will often comment on this moment later after the bang. I keep the kiss short, maybe 2-3 seconds and then pull away first. That's very important. Then I continue the conversation as if nothing has happened.

I let things percolate for a while. It's critical that she doesn't feel like you're too eager and trying to push things too fast. You're letting the sexual development unfold seemingly naturally. The next kiss might be 60-90 minutes later and usually at another venue in a more private area. This is a longer, more passionate kiss, maybe 10--20 seconds, with my arms around her. Break it off and continue gaming.

Round three is at next venue usually , and maybe 45 min to an hour later. Longer kissing, but still not a make out. At this point you can detect definite signs of horniness and she will often re-initiate kissing and want to continue longer. Give her a bit then break it off. You want her wanting more.

Initiate endgame.

Kissing skills are very important: I get told all the time I'm a "great kisser" and I think it contributes a lot to girls wanting to bang me.

Here's a example of the above in action from about a month ago. Set up an online drink date. Met her at the upscale lounge of a restaurant. By the end of the first drink we're hitting it off really well. Before we finish the second drink I lean over during a brief lull in the conversation and kiss her. She looks at me in surprise and grins. We keep talking.

I bounce her to a craft beer bar. We have a beer, and decide to go to another place and get an app (oh no!). We walk out into the quiet street toward my car when she slows and turns to face me, draws closer and just looks at me. Obvious kiss invitation. I grab her and kiss her for 10 seconds and we continue to the car. No kissing in the car, that would be overdoing it. Next venue venue we get an app and a couple of drinks. Leaving requires us to get in an elevator. We are alone. She goes in first ,and when she turns around, I smash her against the back wall of the elevator and we make out for the few seconds it takes to go from the second to the first floor. Walk down the street to another bar. No kissing at this one. Walk to next block to another bar, get a booth and after a while start making out intermittently. Drive her back to her hotel and she invites me up. Boom.


The key to me is to be bold but not overeager or try to push too far too fast. Show her that you want her but that you are experienced and can stay cool. Hold back at times and make her more eager to escalate than you seem to be. This seeming aloofness makes her want you more.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-08-2014 12:08 PM)Mujeriego Wrote:  

In the appetizer thread there were comments regarding making out being a bad metric for how well the date went. I've found the opposite to be true. If I'm on a date and making out, more often than not she winds up in my bed at the end of the night. I'm curious what other player's experiences are.

I've found no correlation with the young girls (18-21, 22-25)
But strong correlation with 26+

I will honestly admit that in most situations I'm not trying to put my lips on em before I feel the time is right. Seems like something to test though.

WIA

[Mujeriego]

Like travesty444, I ignore the "rules." I don't bounce girls to different venues or slowly inch my hand up their knee. I just flirt with and tease them while keeping the drinks flowing. When the time seems right, I go for it.

(10-08-2014 01:15 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  

I think a lot of guys don't know how to kiss that well. One of the things women love to do with me (and I with them) is kiss.

Dead on. A lot of guys don't understand the difference between kissing passionately and sloppy tonsil hockey. I always pretend the girl I'm kissing is the last one I'll ever kiss and it works wonders.

(10-08-2014 03:16 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

I've found no correlation with the young girls (18-21, 22-25)
But strong correlation with 26+

It works well with the younger girls in my experience. I usually don't date girls over 23, but I first date banged a 30 year old a few months ago using the same game.

[Griprip08]

Very interesting thread. I would have to agree with a couple of statements here, one being "I really love kissing girls".

Also, I as well am more of a natural "right moment" type of guy, and believe it has strong benefits. This has worked extremely well for me because it's natural, which makes controlling the frame a cakewalk. For example, I met a girl at the bar, she worked with a buddy of mine.

After most of everyone had went home, I still hadn't had "my time" with her. Finally, we sat at the bar for an extra two hours, me consistently DHV'ing, and throwing out a couple playful/cocky insults (more of negs than anything).

Long story short, I engaged in extremely light kino, I'm talking like I did one of those "re-assuring slap" motions on her thigh while saying some kind of bullshit like "don't worry you'll do fine etc" she returned the kino once or twice as well.

She get's up to leave, and I sit firmly in my chair partially looking at the TV. She says "I'm leaving, but you should walk me out to my car". Boom, the attraction phase is over, and it's a done deal, she's attracted.

Here is the really awesome part that can solidify anyone's game at this point. It's a done deal, she wants it, or at least something. Use this feeling of "I got her" and keep it in your mind, as you comply with her "walk me to my car", "see me out", "come with me", "come up to my apartment" etc. At this point, both of you know what's going down.

I looked at her car, complimented it, complimented the leather (probably 2 rushed robotic sentences) and then like clockwork, turned to her, grabbed the back of her neck and I was off to the races.

Anyways, I might have gotten a little side-tracked here, but the point is, I feel like it's a lot easier, and bolder, to wait until you "know" or are "pretty damn sure" she wants you/something right then and there. Instead of using the kiss to build attraction early on (I might have mis-interpreted this in earlier posts), save it for the comfort building phase, whether it's the first stage, or the transition to endgame. That feeling alone, that assurance/confirmation of attraction (whether it's false in some cases or not) works wonders for frame control and natural confidence. It's almost to the point where if she rejects or pulls away at that stage, you could get away with asking her "Why the fuck did I come out here then?". You walked her out for an obvious reason.

If you did your job to attract her, she WILL let you know. Does "Women want guys who just get it" ring a bell?

[Dantes]

I have had this debate with another forum guy on a few occasions. The last few years I have made it a goal to set the tone with a mix of establishing comfort and a sexual vibe. More times than not, I go for the make-out between the first hour and two hour mark on a first date (drinks).

On a recent first date, I altered it a bit and did not go for the kiss and the date ended without any further escalation. The second date I got a BJ and the third got the bang. I may experiment with this more. However, I have conditioned myself to stay aggressive relatively early. My nature is to be a good listener, introspective and somewhat passive. The setting of a physical tone early gets me psychologically out of this mode and into one that exudes more assertiveness and sexual confidence.

[OregonToSoCal]

I've experimented with kissing/making out at the bar during the first date and holding off all kissing until I get her back at my place and while both can and do work in certain situations I think I prefer Tuth's approach of no kissing until you have the girl in a place where sex can happen. I've been shut down way too many times after having a nice makeout and then suggesting later we go to my place to check out photos or have a drink or some other plausible excuse. The ASD can and does kick in. "It's tempting but we know what will happen if we go back to your place. Maybe next time"

[Nomad77]

I hold out. And I do it for three reasons: 1. it makes me stand apart from all the other guys. 2. It builds sexual tension. 3. It withholds sexual validation and makes her unsure about where she stands with you.

Once you kiss or make out with a girl you can't take it back. She knows you want her and the more aggressive you are the more you want her. NOW were this is the right move is if the girl wants some sex that night and is making this clear. Then there is no point in playing any games if you are up for it too.

[Mujeriego]

(10-08-2014 10:02 PM)OregonToSoCal Wrote:  

I've been shut down way too many times after having a nice makeout and then suggesting later we go to my place to check out photos or have a drink or some other plausible excuse. The ASD can and does kick in. "It's tempting but we know what will happen if we go back to your place. Maybe next time"

Pick a venue within ten minutes of your place and take a cab. Assuming you haven't been a jackass she'll offer you a ride home. Invite her in and bang.

[harveyspecter]

Some advice what to do if she turns her head or something like that?

[Travesty]

^ If she smiles try again later.

If she doesn't and acts a bit cold then start acting more distracted and check out some other hotter girls around. Pull back.

Send her a message she can't be completely cold and hope to stay in your presence long.

[harveyspecter]

How can i pull back if we are on a date?

Lets say we're not even in a club but in a park.

[Travesty]

Be observational about the environment around you, put less focus on her.

Slowly warm up to placing more attention on her. Have a bit more a take it or leave attitude unless she warms up a bit.

If you make a move like that and she is cold, the ball is more in her court to warm up a bit even if it is just stronger and warmer eye contact, easier smiles during conversation.

As always you can always try to add more alcohol to the equation.

[Phoenix]

I used to kiss early, whilst still on the date. Largely to 'push myself' out of being too timid on dates, and it was successful in this. But I stopped doing this because I realized how risky it is.

I have only been on one date where kissing on that date lead to a bang. I am also fairly sure she would have come home without that kiss too. The rest, a large number before I stopped doing it, lead to the girl putting on the brakes, and then things dying out. After I started to deliberately avoid kissing until I got her home, I found success was much better.

I've seen some truly ridiculous miss-uses of the kiss. I saw one guy, clearly on a first date with a girl, kiss her in the middle of a park, at noon, where everyone could see. Where is that going to go dude? Are you going to bang her in the middle of the park?

Perhaps it's possible that heating up a girl before you're home may make her want to come home, and perhaps guys make this work. But personally I've found its payoff to be worse than just asking her home, and then using the kiss there.

[Deluge]

(10-08-2014 01:55 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  

I prefer going for the makeout in private. I like doing this because if she's agreed to be alone with you in private (after a date) she obviously likes you and so she's expecting you to try something.

Also it means the first time I kiss her I can escalate pretty fast to sex (which I do) which I think catches them off guard and means they don't have too much time to think about the fact that she's only met you for the first time. And the first time you kiss her you can get quite passionate and have sex right away as you are in private.

Also as Tuth says in the first bang recipe you can give girls plausible deniability if you don't kiss in the venue as she can say afterwards i was only expecting to makeout at yours and got carried away, as nothing sexual happened between you at that point.

Kissing at the bar makes them less likely to come back to your place, for the very reasons Tuth described in his recipe, it triggers anti-slut defense. If you haven't kissed them yet she can more easily rationalize that she's not just going back to your place to fuck. Experiment with both and you'll realize just how stark the difference is. I don't know anyone whose tried out Tuth's method and then gone back to kissing at the venue.

Also, kissing is a weak success metric because a girl will often still kiss you on a date even if she doesn't like you that much and has no intention of ever fucking you. Not saying it's worthless, it's just that dudes will act like just because a girl kissed means they have that pussy in the bag or count a girl who kissed them but flaked before he got the bang as some form of success.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

I tend to be in the 'hold out' camp too

At least until you've built sufficient tension

Tip of the cap to Nomad77 - same basic main reasons

Keeping her 'off balance' (this is when intrigue/mystery is your friend)
the avg guy would most likely 'show his hand' too early in the interaction
I want her to look at it as a challenge of sorts

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

Just to preface the last comment

Even though I usually don't push for a kiss right off, I do make sure that we hug to establish some physicality

Even if the first hug is weak/awkward/uninspiring, by the time we part I can tell with almost 99.9999% accuracy if I would be sealing the deal soon by the parting embrace

*Light but precise cologne placement so that whiff of freshness stay with her afterwards

[MrXY]

(10-09-2014 09:30 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

Kissing at the bar makes them less likely to come back to your place, for the very reasons Tuth described in his recipe, it triggers anti-slut defense. If you haven't kissed them yet she can more easily rationalize that she's not just going back to your place to fuck. Experiment with both and you'll realize just how stark the difference is. I don't know anyone whose tried out Tuth's method and then gone back to kissing at the venue.

I have tried both ways, and kissing works much better for me than not kissing, and my first date fuck close rate is good- 30-40% last few years.

The difference may be though, that I never invite girls to my place on the first date, or usually, ever. I want them to invite me to theirs.

That is a psychologically different situation entirely. Risk of ASD is much lower because I am not trying to push them into anything; I am using my game skills to make her start thinking of ways she can get alone with me.

But women are more passive in nature, so I can't just sit and talk and expect her to take action. I have to get her in a physiologically heightened and sexually aroused state that gives her the drive to want to resolve it. She has to feel a high degree of urgency to get penetrated (at least subconsciously) to invite a man she doesn't know to her home.

Without this state of urgency, she will be in the "maybe on the second date" mode, so not kissing doesn't work for me.