Hey, guys, Ive been sarging the past few days working on my approaches and its been going well. I made a few mistakes and I've learned from them. However I have not been able to successfully kino escalate. I was wondering if you guys could give me a few tips to kino, specifically when standing and talking.
Good ways to kino
Can you give us specific examples so we can tell you the best way to proceed in those cases
Roosh
http://www.rooshv.com
Quote: (12-03-2008 02:47 AM)Roosh Wrote:
Can you give us specific examples so we can tell you the best way to proceed in those cases
In one scenario when I was out sarging, my wing opened a two set and we were both starting talking to them; transitioning really well to a great conversation. It eventually got to the point where we both isolated the girls but I still couldn't do any kino and couldn't take it anywhere. I was having a great conversation but I would like tips on how to take it a step further and use my good conversation skills to an advantage. I was upset that I couldn't take it anywhere cause I was getting a lot of IOI's.
Often, when I'm standing and talking to a girl, I'll be at a 90-180 degree angle with respect to her (eg, a 90 degree angle would be her body facing east, mine facing north).
You touch her shoulder upper arms, when you're both laughing, or making some joke about her, (eg, touch her when you'd say something like, "oh, you're one of those people"). Progressively lengthen the duration of your touch, and move on towards the lower back. If it fits your game, manhandle her. If you want to move her, put your hand on her lower back and have her follow you.
At some point, you might put your arm around her lower back/hips. Look up the DiCarlo Escalation Ladder (just don't get too dogmatic in following the model).
As you get more experience, you'll worry less about there being an opening, and you'll just touch her because you want to.
I used to think I'd have to have an opening to kiss a girl, eg tell her she's cute first, but it was counter-productive. In fact, you use kino as a measure of when to kiss her. For me, it's usually after I've had my arm touching her lower back for a bit, ~ a couple minutes.
As long as the conversation is light, and she's sufficiently warmed up, the words immediately preceding the kiss are irrelevant.
You touch her shoulder upper arms, when you're both laughing, or making some joke about her, (eg, touch her when you'd say something like, "oh, you're one of those people"). Progressively lengthen the duration of your touch, and move on towards the lower back. If it fits your game, manhandle her. If you want to move her, put your hand on her lower back and have her follow you.
At some point, you might put your arm around her lower back/hips. Look up the DiCarlo Escalation Ladder (just don't get too dogmatic in following the model).
As you get more experience, you'll worry less about there being an opening, and you'll just touch her because you want to.
I used to think I'd have to have an opening to kiss a girl, eg tell her she's cute first, but it was counter-productive. In fact, you use kino as a measure of when to kiss her. For me, it's usually after I've had my arm touching her lower back for a bit, ~ a couple minutes.
As long as the conversation is light, and she's sufficiently warmed up, the words immediately preceding the kiss are irrelevant.
First, playfully touch her shoulder when you say something teasing, or when you say something that deserves attention. Pretend you are a touchy feely person. If you say something teasing or flirty, you can touch her shoulder to add emphasis and playfulness. or something like a "hey listen to this" touch her, then tell/ask her something. If she doesn't recoil, you gotta get brave and put your arm around her and rest your hand on her hip for a sec. I would then do something like get another drink to make it all seem extremely casual. Still no recoil? Do it again when you get back and leave it there.
Shoulder touches are a good way to start.
If it's late and dark then hand on the waist.
If it's late and dark then hand on the waist.
Roosh
http://www.rooshv.com
Great advice here so far. I'll add my own...
I like the shoulder touch. But there is are a couple of tweaks that I've discovered over the years that have really improved my overall results. The first tweak I discovered about the shoulder touch is to touch her ON TOP of her shoulder, and NOT on the BACK of her shoulder. I don't know about the psychology behind this maneuver, but I know that the responses are more positive when my hand is on the top of her shoulder rather than on the back of her shoulder or on her shoulder blade.
The second tweak I discovered is an extension of placing my hand on the top of her shoulder. While I do this, I LOOK AWAY from her (as if I'm looking at someone/thing across the room) but, and here is the important part, CONTINUE SPEAKING TO HER. Okay, so picture it: you have your hand on the top of her shoulder, you're looking away, and are still talking to her. Your body is somewhat 90 degrees to hers. Overall, we're talking about maybe 5 seconds here.
The "looking away" part allows you to keep your hand on her longer without her feeling "creeped out" (I hate that typical male shaming word). But by continuing to talk to her, you keep her engaged at the same time. It really has given me tremendous results overall.
Kino is meant to develop COMFORT and RAPPORT. This is the maneuver I use when I FIRST attempt kino on a woman. If the response is positive, I'll escalate the kino to her back and lower back (as suggested above by others).
As far as other kino tactics are concerned, oftentimes I'll act as if I am removing a piece of lint from the shoulder of her clothing or act as if there is something in her hair that I'm removing. Those are easy ones.
Hope this helps. Peace.
I like the shoulder touch. But there is are a couple of tweaks that I've discovered over the years that have really improved my overall results. The first tweak I discovered about the shoulder touch is to touch her ON TOP of her shoulder, and NOT on the BACK of her shoulder. I don't know about the psychology behind this maneuver, but I know that the responses are more positive when my hand is on the top of her shoulder rather than on the back of her shoulder or on her shoulder blade.
The second tweak I discovered is an extension of placing my hand on the top of her shoulder. While I do this, I LOOK AWAY from her (as if I'm looking at someone/thing across the room) but, and here is the important part, CONTINUE SPEAKING TO HER. Okay, so picture it: you have your hand on the top of her shoulder, you're looking away, and are still talking to her. Your body is somewhat 90 degrees to hers. Overall, we're talking about maybe 5 seconds here.
The "looking away" part allows you to keep your hand on her longer without her feeling "creeped out" (I hate that typical male shaming word). But by continuing to talk to her, you keep her engaged at the same time. It really has given me tremendous results overall.
Kino is meant to develop COMFORT and RAPPORT. This is the maneuver I use when I FIRST attempt kino on a woman. If the response is positive, I'll escalate the kino to her back and lower back (as suggested above by others).
As far as other kino tactics are concerned, oftentimes I'll act as if I am removing a piece of lint from the shoulder of her clothing or act as if there is something in her hair that I'm removing. Those are easy ones.
Hope this helps. Peace.
Fortune favors the bold.
Ditto - don't look at where you touch. Its the way people naturally touch each other, otherwise it takes on another meaning. Practice on a friend!
"For the true meaning of victory ask the defeated warrior"
Quote: (12-14-2008 08:44 PM)X-Factor Wrote:
The "looking away" part allows you to keep your hand on her longer without her feeling "creeped out" (I hate that typical male shaming word). But by continuing to talk to her, you keep her engaged at the same time.
Nice, very perceptive. I recall briefly viewing a pickup artist discuss body language (maybe Lance from Pickup 101, a DeAngelo video), and he made a similar point: if you make yourself felt too much, she will be creeped out.
Say, you could face her directly from 4 feet away and she'd be comfortable, but if you stepped forward, she'd get creeped out. But if you were to turn and talk to her from over your shoulder, so only your face and not your body is facing her, you could come closer, nearly shoulder to shoulder, without creeping her out.
In the plains of the Serengeti, hunters adopted similar tactics when approaching their prey...
Quote: (12-15-2008 11:48 AM)basilransom Wrote:
Quote: (12-14-2008 08:44 PM)X-Factor Wrote:
The "looking away" part allows you to keep your hand on her longer without her feeling "creeped out" (I hate that typical male shaming word). But by continuing to talk to her, you keep her engaged at the same time.
Nice, very perceptive. I recall briefly viewing a pickup artist discuss body language (maybe Lance from Pickup 101, a DeAngelo video), and he made a similar point: if you make yourself felt too much, she will be creeped out.
Say, you could face her directly from 4 feet away and she'd be comfortable, but if you stepped forward, she'd get creeped out. But if you were to turn and talk to her from over your shoulder, so only your face and not your body is facing her, you could come closer, nearly shoulder to shoulder, without creeping her out.
^^ This is true.
Like I said above, I'm not sure what the psyhchology is behind the "hand on top of the shoulder" versus the "hand on the BACK of the shoulder," but I've had my suspicions. I think that the hand on the back is too...."protective" (for lack of a better term) in nature. It is as if you're saying to her, "I'm going to try and protect you."
And at times, that is the message you want to project. However, in the initial phases of building comfort and rapport, this is NOT what you want to subcommunicate. It is very chumpish to want to "protect" a girl you just met.
Fortune favors the bold.
That's good stuff really and I have to agree to almost all of it. One test I used to put out there is the rubbing of the inner thigh. No I'm not talking about her twat, but that area just on the inside part of her thigh.
When I was trying to understand kino I made that and the kiss as the ultimate goal way back in the begining. I think the inner thigh is a true test of kino because even when things are going great you can lose it with that one touch (can be very creepy). Basically, I thought that if I could get there then she basically was ready for sex. I was right about 10% of the time, but still I think my overall success rate may have been the same regardless.
I always started with the hand first because it's the easiest and most logical starting point. This is one of my secret techniques I alluded to in another thread that I spent a lot of time working on. Even if you're sitting in a booth across from one another being able to get to the hand is simple and a good starting point. There are some instances where I skip the hand and go straight for the shoulder or waist but that's after I've gauged the situation a bit.
The first time I tried the hand was when I was on a date with a chick and we were at the movies. It was dark in there and I was in need of some skin feeling so I look over at the girl and said "What's that in your hand" she looks down and is like "what?" So I'm like "oh it's my hand" and I grab her hand. She thought it was cute and it worked out. I later thought about it and figured it was too direct and that it could turn most women off so I revamped it.
Taking a baby step forward I started applying it to handshakes. If I'm being introduced to a chick I extend my hand to shake it (not like a lumberjack) and a person's natural motor response is to take your hand. Later I inched a little further with it and used it to just introduce myself to new chicks.
Later I would just walk around the room, walk up to a chick, say something briefly like "hey are you having a good time" or something equally mundane and then just throw my hand out. And in most cases the instant reaction is to take it. But this time I was extending it not so much like a hand shake but more like 'take my hand' kind of thing. Not always did women fall for it though and most of those just turned out to be stuck up anyhow. But it was a good starting point for me. But if they did I would pull them up out of their chair and do whatever and tried to keep it fun.
The key really was to keep it brief and to not be creepy about it. I started incorporating body language that I learned later about turning my body slightly away or my face as I'm doing it. Eventually, I developed two basic routines from the hand touch. The first is the overt hand grab and the second is the subtle kino escalation touch.
The overt hand grab is the one I used if I was sitting in a booth or meeting a chick for the first time. There is a timing to it as well the last time I used the hand grab was at the Tap House in Reston. I had been talking up this chick the whole night it was just me and my buddy. After a couple of playfull passes I finally get her to sit at my table. I didn't go to her I made sure she sat down at my table. After talking it up for a few minutes I reached out over the table as to introduce myself. This was after we had been flirting a bit in passing. While I'm shaking her hand I'll look at her with kind of a funny face and say "wow you have a very interesting/nice handshake".
This was something I learned a few years ago from the D'Angelo site that I was able to use with my own game. While not letting go of her hand I'll say "you can tell a lot about a person from their handhsake" and that usually is followed up with a "oh really? what can you tell about me" or something along those lines. Bam! You got her. If she goes "that's nice" and pulls away then it's probably lost (which has happened to me).
The beautiful part is that you can BS her with anything. My spiel was that I studied palm reading and chicks eat up that astrology BS. "would like me to perform a reading?", "Yeah!"
The catch is I don't know the first thing about palm reading or astrology. But I would just make things up and cold read her. Oh, and BTW Cold Reading I think is an essential part of studying the game. If you have the chance to pickup a copy of the "Full Facts Book on Cold Reading" you should. Girls like to hear that they're ambitious, artistic, that they are strong yet have a sensitive side that most people don't get see and blah, blah. Long story short she offered up her number and email address she even called me the very next day.
Anyhow, I can go on and on about this. But I don't recommend anyone trying this without getting more information and taking baby steps to build up to the finale. You just have to find your thing and work with it. I found my thing and was able to transform it so higher levels of kino that worked out nicely overall. I should check back later to discuss how I converged the hand touch into the thigh rub.
When I was trying to understand kino I made that and the kiss as the ultimate goal way back in the begining. I think the inner thigh is a true test of kino because even when things are going great you can lose it with that one touch (can be very creepy). Basically, I thought that if I could get there then she basically was ready for sex. I was right about 10% of the time, but still I think my overall success rate may have been the same regardless.
I always started with the hand first because it's the easiest and most logical starting point. This is one of my secret techniques I alluded to in another thread that I spent a lot of time working on. Even if you're sitting in a booth across from one another being able to get to the hand is simple and a good starting point. There are some instances where I skip the hand and go straight for the shoulder or waist but that's after I've gauged the situation a bit.
The first time I tried the hand was when I was on a date with a chick and we were at the movies. It was dark in there and I was in need of some skin feeling so I look over at the girl and said "What's that in your hand" she looks down and is like "what?" So I'm like "oh it's my hand" and I grab her hand. She thought it was cute and it worked out. I later thought about it and figured it was too direct and that it could turn most women off so I revamped it.
Taking a baby step forward I started applying it to handshakes. If I'm being introduced to a chick I extend my hand to shake it (not like a lumberjack) and a person's natural motor response is to take your hand. Later I inched a little further with it and used it to just introduce myself to new chicks.
Later I would just walk around the room, walk up to a chick, say something briefly like "hey are you having a good time" or something equally mundane and then just throw my hand out. And in most cases the instant reaction is to take it. But this time I was extending it not so much like a hand shake but more like 'take my hand' kind of thing. Not always did women fall for it though and most of those just turned out to be stuck up anyhow. But it was a good starting point for me. But if they did I would pull them up out of their chair and do whatever and tried to keep it fun.
The key really was to keep it brief and to not be creepy about it. I started incorporating body language that I learned later about turning my body slightly away or my face as I'm doing it. Eventually, I developed two basic routines from the hand touch. The first is the overt hand grab and the second is the subtle kino escalation touch.
The overt hand grab is the one I used if I was sitting in a booth or meeting a chick for the first time. There is a timing to it as well the last time I used the hand grab was at the Tap House in Reston. I had been talking up this chick the whole night it was just me and my buddy. After a couple of playfull passes I finally get her to sit at my table. I didn't go to her I made sure she sat down at my table. After talking it up for a few minutes I reached out over the table as to introduce myself. This was after we had been flirting a bit in passing. While I'm shaking her hand I'll look at her with kind of a funny face and say "wow you have a very interesting/nice handshake".
This was something I learned a few years ago from the D'Angelo site that I was able to use with my own game. While not letting go of her hand I'll say "you can tell a lot about a person from their handhsake" and that usually is followed up with a "oh really? what can you tell about me" or something along those lines. Bam! You got her. If she goes "that's nice" and pulls away then it's probably lost (which has happened to me).
The beautiful part is that you can BS her with anything. My spiel was that I studied palm reading and chicks eat up that astrology BS. "would like me to perform a reading?", "Yeah!"
The catch is I don't know the first thing about palm reading or astrology. But I would just make things up and cold read her. Oh, and BTW Cold Reading I think is an essential part of studying the game. If you have the chance to pickup a copy of the "Full Facts Book on Cold Reading" you should. Girls like to hear that they're ambitious, artistic, that they are strong yet have a sensitive side that most people don't get see and blah, blah. Long story short she offered up her number and email address she even called me the very next day.
Anyhow, I can go on and on about this. But I don't recommend anyone trying this without getting more information and taking baby steps to build up to the finale. You just have to find your thing and work with it. I found my thing and was able to transform it so higher levels of kino that worked out nicely overall. I should check back later to discuss how I converged the hand touch into the thigh rub.
Yeah, cold reading. Its alot of fun to know about this stuff because it is genuinely a great source of laughs and banter. The reason people learn jokes is for the same reason, so no need to be shy about doing a little bit of study. I find the brief handwriting analysis book I read has helped in numerous (NUMEROUS) contexts. Worth its weight in gold. I haven't got into any of the palm reading, mostly because I thought it was corny, but actually I think my views may be changing on that since handwriting analysis has helped me so much in various ways.
The problem here I feel is social conditioning ( can you agree?) - its not learning how to kino like its some skill you need to acquire. Kino is a natural expression, which should be congruent to an emptional state of closeness, that we all have forgotten because of our very conservative and anti-sex/uality culture; particularly around men touching anyone else (including other men). My tack is to go the inner game route and try and kino in a congruent way at points of emotional closeness, not try little tricks to touch her.
Practice on friends!
The problem here I feel is social conditioning ( can you agree?) - its not learning how to kino like its some skill you need to acquire. Kino is a natural expression, which should be congruent to an emptional state of closeness, that we all have forgotten because of our very conservative and anti-sex/uality culture; particularly around men touching anyone else (including other men). My tack is to go the inner game route and try and kino in a congruent way at points of emotional closeness, not try little tricks to touch her.
Practice on friends!
"For the true meaning of victory ask the defeated warrior"
Tried rapid kino escalation, but it failed.
A minor field report: Was a party at my house couple nights ago, was talking up my friend's friend, call her A. My friend had told me beforehand A wanted to hook up with me, before the party, as I'd met her before.
I talk her up, minor kino throughout, take her up to my room, sitting on my bed, arm around her waist. She teases me, and I use it as an excuse to jump on top of her, and try and kiss her, in a fun way, but she strenuously dodged my attempts to kiss her. She started saying how there's this guy she's been hooking up with, texting her. She was smiling the whole time.
My friend later said she was creeped out after I tried the pinning deal, but I think the combination of a sudden move and the prospect of leaving me at some point to fuck another dude, brought her back to 'reality.' It's a risky move, but I'm confident it'll work in many scenarios. This one happened to require a smoother seduction, due to her having a dude on the side, who was texting her throughout.
A minor field report: Was a party at my house couple nights ago, was talking up my friend's friend, call her A. My friend had told me beforehand A wanted to hook up with me, before the party, as I'd met her before.
I talk her up, minor kino throughout, take her up to my room, sitting on my bed, arm around her waist. She teases me, and I use it as an excuse to jump on top of her, and try and kiss her, in a fun way, but she strenuously dodged my attempts to kiss her. She started saying how there's this guy she's been hooking up with, texting her. She was smiling the whole time.
My friend later said she was creeped out after I tried the pinning deal, but I think the combination of a sudden move and the prospect of leaving me at some point to fuck another dude, brought her back to 'reality.' It's a risky move, but I'm confident it'll work in many scenarios. This one happened to require a smoother seduction, due to her having a dude on the side, who was texting her throughout.
I think your persistence is great. However, I've had the same thing happen. At a certain point you go past the point of no return where its a battle and she just gets into her head that letting you do anything would somehow be wrong in some girl-logic way. I wonder whether at some stage you could have pulled away from her and let her sit there... hrm push pull.
"For the true meaning of victory ask the defeated warrior"
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