[Nomad77]

In reading Roosh latest book the one thing that caught my attention was the amount of girls he never saw again or only a few times. If the stats from the book holds true then I would guess he doesn't see more than 50% of the girls he bang's a second time and probably 80% more than a few times. This was amazing to me, given that it's very rare for a girl not to want to see me again even IF I don't bang her. So what's the difference between my approach and someone like Roosh? It's comes down to his objective - the ONS. The ONS is going for the close of a sale at all cost that night. To be successful at it you have to use high pressure sales tactics: alcohol + relentlessly breaking down any resistance. And while you may close the girl that night there is a very high chance she will feel less than happy the next day. Think of it this way, how do you feel when you have been sold something under pressure? It's not a good feeling and this is the reason used car salesmen have the reputation they have. Because they are notorious for using high pressure sales tactics to close sales.

In contrast, when you buy something and feel that it was your decision you are usually happy after the fact. The key difference is how much of the decision you feel was of your own choosing vs being pressured into the purchase. The more you feel that the decision was yours, the happier you will be after the purchase. The less you feel the decision was yours the more unhappy you will feel after the purchase. And this works exactly the same for sex. The more the girl feels that she made the decision to have sex the more happy she will feel after the sex and the more likely she will be wanting to see you again. After all, who wants to see someone again they associate with a bad experience.

ONS game by it's very objective requires high pressure tactics. You are trying to close the sale in a short time. But you have to understand that this will usually come at the price of having a repeat customer. If you are not looking for a repeat customer then fine, no problem. But if you are looking for the girl to come back for seconds, thirds, fourth, etc. then it's better not to use these tactics and leave her feeling good after each encounter. Relationship game is precisely about this. Make the girl feel good AFTER each encounter with you while advancing/building the relationship. It's just like someone doing business with you. If the first experience with you leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth why would they want to continue to do business with you? The exception to this is IF the girl wants to bang almost as much as you do and is actively contributing to that outcome.

ONS game and relationship requires different approaches. One is basically closing the sale at all cost. You are not looking for a customer, you are looking to make a sale - that night! Relationship game is not about one sale. It's about repeat sales. You want a girl to become a customer and a happy one at that. To do this you need to leave the girl happy and wanting more of you after each encounter. But this takes time of course. You can't build a relationship in one day.

PS I rarely pressure girls into sex. I get off way too much on girls wanting me. And if you build the sexual tension high enough girls will not only become buyers but forceful ones at that. I have had more than one instance where a girl said something to this effect, the first time: "you started this and now you are going to finish it! while pulling off my clothes." Sex is good but being desired is way better.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(08-09-2014 09:28 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

...
ONS game by it's very objective requires high pressure tactics. You are trying to close the sale in a short time. But you have to understand that this will usually come at the price of having a repeat customer. If you are not looking for a repeat customer then fine, no problem. But if you are looking for the girl to come back for seconds, thirds, fourth, etc. then it's better not to use these tactics and leave her feeling good after each encounter. Relationship game is precisely about this. Make the girl feel good AFTER each encounter with you while advancing/building the relationship. It's just like someone doing business with you. If the first experience with you leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth why would they want to continue to do business with you? The exception to this is IF the girl wants to bang almost as much as you do and is actively contributing to that outcome.
...

Don't think if pressure sales tactics and ONE-NIGHT-STAND-GAME can be compared.

With most of my relationships as well as quick lays I always went for the instant lay. Only in my Beta-days did I let things drip forward slowly.

There may be different reasons why Roosh was not seeing the girls longer. Part of the makeup of Game is that many guys are moving into R-selected/Lover mode that is more fun, easygoing and gets you way more Lays (also high-quality ones). The Lover vs. Provider Category is something that women categorize men into. Love to fuck him, but would not want him as a boyfriend.

In my opinion it is not much of a problem to flip the script and get some Feelgood experiences on top of the Lover excitement. Go pet a dog, play with a puppy, talk to her about some topics which show your humanitarian side - all this coupled with the already established Alpha-Lover vibe makes you the perfect Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks in one person. I've had those experiences a few times where I used aloof Game coupled with times spent in luxury hotels and talking about various humanitarian issues I was concerned about. That was even before having learnt Game - unbeknownst to me I was playing Lover and potential Provider in one (because I pulled them to the hotel within an hour).

Here a good vid on the R-selected vs. K-selected or Lover/Provider Game:

Also Krauser on it:

http://krauserpua.com/2014/06/13/the-r-s...l-playboy/

Quote:

This is completely different to the K-selected idea of an MLTR. I don’t have to tell lies to any of them. I make it clear I’m a player and then don’t rub their noses in the details. There are no dinner dates, walks around the park and except for Anya I never hold their hands in public. I’m not installing these girls into apartments like mistresses, buying them iPads, or establishing a position in their social circles. I’ve not met a single friend or family member of any of them. The entire relationship is a one-on-one discreet secret. We share affection and connection – we have true moments of the Love Bubble, it’s not “empty sex” – but it’s not a boyfriend/girlfriend thing.

In some rare instances I give you credit - some girls have told me that they never called back a guy because she fucked him the very day she met him. Those girls usually require several dates for them to sleep with you. But they are a dying breed - you can still encounter them in EE. Don't think that this was the case with Roosh here.

In most of my encounters with women I would rather be the Secret Society Lover. Most men need to learn the proper skillset to do that. Being a loving Boyfriend is what we are conditioned to be from our birth, so that comfort part should not come so difficult for most.

[Nomad77]

I still maintain how the girl feels after sex is what will determine if you see her again. My background in marketing has taught me that people are people before they are men or women. No one likes to be pressured into doing anything. Now, that of course, is up to the individual. What one person may consider too much pressure someone else may think it's fine. Naturally, there are also other factors at play. The point is not how soon you have sex with a girl. It's about how much she is actively contributing to that outcome. If she wants to have sex soon and is working with you to make that happen then by all means go for it.

[Ensam]

I've been a ONS guy for a while but I don't use high pressure tactics - it's all about target selection. My game is basically find girls who are DTF and don't fuck it up. I'd say 90% want to see me again though usually the 6+s are involved in some kind of relationship and start to feel guilty about stepping out on their guy. That's the main reason they don't turn into relationships.

[JJ Roberts]

Keeping multiple unfenced relationships at the same time is the best model I have found and that's basically all I do. I have no interest in fenced relationships.

However, if you don't know how to do that then a lot of guys end of in the position of basically having to start from scratch all over again ... and again ... and again.

The problem with that is that it's a huge amount of effort for not much reward. That plus the frustration of knowing you have to go back to square one again.

[Ensam]

Upon further reflection I agree with your premise that high pressure tactics could poison a girl long term but I think you're falling victim to the classic blue pill model of sex.

(08-09-2014 09:28 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

ONS game by it's very objective requires high pressure tactics.

This presupposes that women aren't looking for one night stands or fast sex. My experience has been quite the opposite. There are plenty of chicks who just want some dick and they want it now. More importantly these chicks are often the exact same girls who want a long term stable relationship. Just as guys tend to categorize women into good girls and bad girls women do the same thing. They treat some guys as pieces of meat and groom others for relationships. The risk you run with a ONS or relatively quick sex without any kind of rapport is that the chick will categorize you as a 'fuck guy' (I've heard them use this term). It's not that she regrets the encounter - she just doesn't want to get into a relationship with the guy she wants to fuck for the night. One thing I've seen happen a lot is girls not wanting to be in a long term relationship with a guy who knows how slutty they can be. A chick who floated through my rotation for a while slept with me on the first date and then continued to come over just for sex for a few months. Eventually she started a relationship with a dude in our extended social circle who has absolutely no idea that she's not a 'good' girl. For her she'd rather give up hot sex to be with a guy who views her as a good girl - at least for now.

ONS and LTR game might require different tactics but I think the underlying reasons are more complex.

[WestIndianArchie]

Nomad, you're the Superman to my Lex Luthor.

1. Roosh doesn't need anyone to defend him. But i'd say in many cases, he's CHOOSING to let these chicks bounce. The way I read all of his adventures, is that a lot of these chicks he could settle down with.

But he's going to countries where
- young women are in abundance
- feminine women are in abundance
- hot women are in abundance
- he's in shape
- he's got his money situation right

Why would he ever settle down, much less settle for a worse life.

After the honeymoon period, when you've banged her 6 ways to Sunday - where's the value?

2. ONS stand game - i.e. Game - because the two should be synonymous

aren't high pressure sales.

I've sold life insurance. Where you have one shot to sell someone on something intangible, and the only way it pays out, is if they die.

It is the opposite of tight game.

Let me be the first to tell you, the Feminists are right.
I'm sure the Jezebel Agents are going to post this on their blog.

But what you're going after is an enthusiastic yes.
YES, GOD YES.

When I read guys talking about
- she flaked
- last minute resistance

I know that they fucked up the game at some point.

A chick flakes cause you're not her hottest option, which means you failed to implant yourself in her mind when you got the #. This is a tough thing to do, so don't beat yourself up about it.

LMR - means you're revving up her sexual engine, making the logistics happen, but her brain and heart aren't in it, even though her loins are.

Withdrawing affection and closeness is how you get past that hurdle. You're making her realize that you are a good bet, just at the last minute.

Tight game is addressing those misgivings early on.

Either you do it by screening for DTF Tonight, or you're very aware of her psychology through interaction and observation.

But if you're building that rapport, that comfort, increasing that heat, getting that compliance, making things easy for her - it's not high pressure at all. If anything, she's doing anything possible to stop herself from doing the one thing she wants. She's putting pressure on herself.

Goes back to the essential truth - these chicks really really like sex. Even if the sex isn't that objectively good, the idea is so appealing that she still wants it. Throw in the blurring of the lines and lack of compartamentalization...

To her
- you're hot
- she wants it right now

but there might be consequences.....but the right now outweighs the consequences.

How do you think Raw Dogging is possible?

These girls know what's up, and they still want to feel the real you anyway.

WIA

[Nomad77]

Ok, to clarify a few points:

They are girls out there looking for ONS and quick sex. I don't believe these girls are going to put up the kind of resistance that Roosh has to overcome on a regular basis at least that has not been my experience with these types of girls.

When I talk about relationship I am speaking in a very broad sense meaning any ongoing interaction with the girl including fb.

The point I am making is that if you take a girl who isn't looking for quick sex and use game to get it from her there is a good chance you may not see her again. So if you do want to see her again the safer bet is not to push for the ONS unless she's a willing partner.

This is not an attack on Roosh. He has a self imposed time constraint that essentially forces him to push hard for the ONS.

[Nomad77]

@Zelcorpion You and the Owen are absolutely correct about women treating men differently based on whether they are categorized as a provider or lover. Personally, I am usually categorized as a lover but even then I feel that there is a line I can cross where I am simply dominating the girl. If I pull out my full alpha mode very few girls are able to assert themselves against me. I can get the lay almost by commanding it. But it's a fine line and one that's easy to cross especially when you are in party mode and alcohol is involved. Regardless of how you get the sex though, how she feels the next day will determine to a great extent whether she will want to see you again. As this Russian girl once told me: it's not how the girl feels when she is with that's important, it's how she feels when she is not with you that will make her want to see you again.

And it's the same with sales. I left sales not because I wasn't good at it but because I no longer felt good doing it. I had reached a point where I was selling things to people that not only didn't need it but couldn't even afford it. I wanted to feel good about selling to people and I couldn't do that in corporate America. I want to feel good about my interactions with women. Maybe it has to do with the fact that due to my age and experience sex is no longer the No.1 priority for me. I have never felt proud of a sale where I felt I was doing 99% of the selling. And I don't bang girls where I feel I am doing 99% of the work. For me, that's just not fun, but that's just me.

More than once I have turned down a virgin because they would just lie there and not do anything. One got upset with me and started telling me shit. And I told her: hey, I am willing to do 90% of the work but you are going to have to do something besides lie there and allow me to do stuff. It is not enough for a girl to "allow" me to have sex with her. I require her participation on some minimal level - 10% or better would be nice. For me sex is like dancing. If the girl can't move her ass, I would prefer to dance by myself.

[Nomad77]

@WIA Sorry but I don't hold Game to be this omnipotent force that you seem to. I don't believe Game can overcome a lack of basic sexual attraction for example. We always want to blame the outcome on the guy not having tight enough Game like if Game can somehow compensate for all of the factors that enter into a girl's decision and reactions. Women are emotional creature and their emotions have more to do with their thoughts than your game. You can do everything 100% right and still get screwed over by a dozen factors that you are not even aware of much less able to compensate for.

[WestIndianArchie]

(08-09-2014 07:18 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

@WIA Sorry but I don't hold Game to be this omnipotent force that you seem to.

I have a feeling you're not sorry. Haha.

(08-09-2014 07:18 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

I don't believe Game can overcome a lack of basic sexual attraction for example.

Different world views I guess.

But I think that your view of "basic sexual attraction" is limited.

I'm guessing that you coming from the school of thought that believes women IMMEDIATELY assign you a category based on whether or not your sexually attractive.

That's not the case, nor has ever been the case. There's no 30 second rule. And plenty of hot looking guys become un-fuckable when they start talking. Plenty of so-so looking guys can suddenly become kings when they speak. They don't operate on our wavelength.

Furthermore, a chick will want to have sex with a guy for all sorts of reasons OTHER than sexual attraction.

Girl will fuck you
- because she loves you, not because she finds you sexy
- out of duty
- out of spite
- for sport
- because she's bored
- to get back at some guy
- to gain status among her girl friends
- she wants a baby
- she's horny and you'll do for the time being

Women are complex, have lots of motivations and interests that are not only different than men's, but alien.

(08-09-2014 07:18 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

We always want to blame the outcome on the guy not having tight enough Game like if Game can somehow compensate for all of the factors that enter into a girl's decision and reactions. Women are emotional creature and their emotions have more to do with their thoughts than your game. You can do everything 100% right and still get screwed over by a dozen factors that you are not even aware of much less able to compensate for.

Humans are emotional creatures, but it doesn't mean that their behavior doesn't fall into patterns.

But back to one night stands

In the Last Minute resistance scenario, you've managed to meet the girl, open her up, attract her, get some rapport, isolate her, and bounce back to your crib.

If you fail to bang, it's not because she's not sexually attracted. Whether or not there's basic sexual attraction in the LMR scenario is not a factor. In the one night stand scenario that I laid out, she wouldn't come up to your spot if she wasn't attracted.

(for the lurkers, just cause you manage to bring a girl back to your crib for a league of legends session doesn't mean she wants to bang. In fact it probably means the opposite ...)

Now in her mind, she might just want to make out and cuddle.
But a hand can find its way underneath a pair of pants.
(and you should tell her that no means no!)

Proper game isn't high pressure. It isn't cajoling.
Proper game ends with a chick wanting to sleep with you.

It's not magic. She found you desirable way before you got her on the couch watching the Notebook. So getting her to be free is you uncovering her unmet needs, and meeting those needs.

WIA

[Nomad77]

@WIA Good stuff and well written! But in life everything is possible but at some point you have to decide whether to live you life based on what is possible or what is "probable." For example, it's possible I can go out there tonight and a Victoria Secret model will see me and insist on having some wild, crazy sex with me - it's possible, but how probable is it? If you had to assign it a percentile value what would it be? 0.05%?

So a woman can do anything for any reason, so can anyone. So what? Personally I don't care about the exceptions in life I care about the norm: what is likely to happen 80% of the time given the same known factors. I do not pursue latin girls unless I get a strong signal from them indicating a decent level of attraction. Why? Because pass experience has thought me that doing so usually does not yield a good ROI (Return On Investment). Does this mean I never bang latin girls or they never like me? Of course not, I have and they do, but it's an exception not the norm. The ones that do are the black swans and I don't concern myself with black swans and all of the potential outcomes in the universe. I only care about what is most likely or probable - I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible because even then I still have to face a vast array of unknown factors that can screw me over every which way but good.

And here is a direct quote from the book: "From this point on, whatever girl comes out with me is coming back to my apartment or fucking off. My pressure will be relentless. I will manipulate, I will lie, and I will guilt trip these girls into coming back as as possible..." Doesn't sound like just a little "cajoling" to me

[WestIndianArchie]

(08-09-2014 08:57 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

@WIA Good stuff and well written! But in life everything is possible but at some point you have to decide whether to live you life based on what is possible or what is "probable." For example, it's possible I can go out there tonight and a Victoria Secret model will see me and insist on having some wild, crazy sex with me - it's possible, but how probable is it? If you had to assign it a percentile value what would it be? 0.05%?

But you're in an international city.

You could very well meet a chick that is Victoria Secret Model pretty @ Midnight.

If she entertains your rap for a bit, you can show how her your personality.
While she's vibing on that, you can pepper the conversation with some jokes, stories, a little bit of teasing.

From there you can pull her into your world a bit, create a bubble. You can listen to her stories. You can ask about her dreams and desires. You can find out what makes her tick.

Suddenly the two of you are talking.

You break the touch barrier once.
You break it twice.
She doesn't mind the feel of your skin.

You extend your hand, and she reaches for it.

Now rewind back to 11:58, when you didn't know this girl from a hole in the ground. When you were a stranger to her, probably invisible.

This girl had no idea she was going to meet you.
She certainly didn't think she was going to TOUCH you at any point.

But now she's laughing at your jokes, she's reaching for your hand.

You gonna chalk this up to her being immediately sexually attracted to you @ 12:01
@ 12:15?

She might not even know how attracted she is to you, until later.
But at some level, something is keeping her there.

That something is you.

You're bringing out your "A" game and winning.

(08-09-2014 08:57 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

So a woman can do anything for any reason, so can anyone. So what? Personally I don't care about the exceptions in life I care about the norm: what is likely to happen 80% of the time given the same known factors. I do not pursue latin girls unless I get a strong signal from them indicating a decent level of attraction.

When exactly do you get that indication?

2 seconds into it?
before you say a word?
within 5 minutes?
15 minutes tops?
What's the latest you ever got that indication?

Do you only ever get with chicks that give you the immediate go ahead?
Only chicks that give you strong eye contact?
Only chicks that find their way over to you?
Only chicks that approach you first?

Have you never pushed forward w/o getting the go ahead?

(08-09-2014 08:57 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Why? Because pass experience has thought me that doing so usually does not yield a good ROI (Return On Investment). Does this mean I never bang latin girls or they never like me? Of course not, I have and they do, but it's an exception not the norm. The ones that do are the black swans and I don't concern myself with black swans and all of the potential outcomes in the universe. I only care about what is most likely or probable - I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible because even then I still have to face a vast array of unknown factors that can screw me over every which way but good.

And here is a direct quote from the book: "From this point on, whatever girl comes out with me is coming back to my apartment or fucking off. My pressure will be relentless. I will manipulate, I will lie, and I will guilt trip these girls into coming back as as possible..." Doesn't sound like just a little "cajoling" to me

Are you referring to Roosh? His latest work?

If I show you passages where that's not how the lay happened does your argument fall apart?

If I bring in other books, of other guys, with different sorts of game...does your point about high pressure game still stand up to scrutiny?

WIA

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(08-09-2014 06:45 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

... I can get the lay almost by commanding it. But it's a fine line and one that's easy to cross especially when you are in party mode and alcohol is involved. Regardless of how you get the sex though, how she feels the next day will determine to a great extent whether she will want to see you again. As this Russian girl once told me: it's not how the girl feels when she is with that's important, it's how she feels when she is not with you that will make her want to see you again.

And it's the same with sales. I left sales not because I wasn't good at it but because I no longer felt good doing it. I had reached a point where I was selling things to people that not only didn't need it but couldn't even afford it. I wanted to feel good about selling to people and I couldn't do that in corporate America. I want to feel good about my interactions with women. Maybe it has to do with the fact that due to my age and experience sex is no longer the No.1 priority for me. I have never felt proud of a sale where I felt I was doing 99% of the selling. And I don't bang girls where I feel I am doing 99% of the work. For me, that's just not fun, but that's just me.

From your thoughts it sounds as if you have been one of those excellent sales people I've met sometimes. There are those guys who almost by their mere presence sell things, which is likely one of the highest plateau you come upon.
I personally was in Sales too, but never reached that kind of level.

In a way that explains your perception of Game.

Also it seems that you are good-looking enough to attract plenty of IOIs which make preselection easier. A lot of Naturals I know do this. Now - there are plenty of greats of Game out there who never had that luxury because they were too short and ugly to get too many IOIs - they always had to rely on Game by far more to pull all kinds of girls into their bubble. There is a saying for girls who are quickly attracted to you - YES GIRLS. Some guys just have a lot more of them than others.

I think if a girl has been fucked well enough, not too much alcohol was involved and she truly sees you as an exciting all-around Lover, then she will want to see you again. Some guys will be cast as a potential Boyfriend as well - the attraction is high enough that she will keep on hoping.

And yes - in a few cases unexperienced or very chaste girls will be surprised to have fucked you so quickly and will resent you for it. But those are very very few nowadays. I only met one or two girls in my life who were like that.

But that has little to do with high-pressure Sales tactics and the feelings afterwards. People regret that in sales, because the repercussions of having spent a lot of money that they cannot afford / or done a bad purchase is just taking a toll. Ultimately girls will always fuck you on a whim, unless they have been thinking about it for quite some time and their mind is made up.

Now that said - women are ill-suited for random hook-ups and thus many will always have some kind of regret. If the guy was highly Alpha, exciting and fun in bed - she will likely often want to have him in her life either as a boyfriend or at least as Lover. But she will want to see him again. If it was more something created in a bubble last night and he does not fit many of her attraction cues, then she will resent it more and rationalize it away.

But people make even marriage decisions on some frivolous reasons - why the fuck do I have to concern myself, why a girl wants to fuck me, if the main point is that she wants to fuck me?

[MongolianAbroad]

(08-09-2014 09:28 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

In reading Roosh latest book the one thing that caught my attention was the amount of girls he never saw again or only a few times. If the stats from the book holds true then I would guess he doesn't see more than 50% of the girls he bang's a second time and probably 80% more than a few times. This was amazing to me, given that it's very rare for a girl not to want to see me again even IF I don't bang her. So what's the difference between my approach and someone like Roosh? It's comes down to his objective - the ONS. The ONS is going for the close of a sale at all cost that night. To be successful at it you have to use high pressure sales tactics: alcohol + relentlessly breaking down any resistance. And while you may close the girl that night there is a very high chance she will feel less than happy the next day. Think of it this way, how do you feel when you have been sold something under pressure? It's not a good feeling and this is the reason used car salesmen have the reputation they have. Because they are notorious for using high pressure sales tactics to close sales.

This is interesting.

Let's think of something here, using our past bangs as reference points.

Start with "point A," the moment you met a girl. Then travel through time to "point B," the moment you first had sex with that girl. Now, think of the girls with whom you've had pretty solid sexual relationships, and the ones you've had much weaker sexual relationships with.

Do you guys see a correlation, in your experience, between the longer time frame from point A to point B and a more solid sexual relationship?

And do you guys see a correlation as well between a shorter distance from point A to point B and a weaker sexual relationship (or even the weakest sexual relationship, a one night stand).

I do see this, in my experience. The correlation isn't one to one, but it's definitely there.

As the saying goes, "Easy come, easy go."

In the past, girls would do something called "playing hard to get," and it meant holding out on sex, as a way to induce the guy pursuing her to stick around once he got the sex, because he would see the sex as more valuable, since he had to invest more time to get it, or so the reasoning went.

Perhaps one of the factors at play here is that if a girl puts out quickly, AND wasn't consciously intending to do so, she may believe that now her sex is undervalued in your mind, and she may not be willing to stick around and let you continue undervaluing her sex in this way. She may think the damage is done, and she'd rather start fresh with another fellow who may value her sex at a higher level than you do (in her mind), permanently, simply because of the circumstances of how you initially obtained her sex.

All these things tie in to each other.

Interesting stuff.

[Ensam]

(08-09-2014 07:18 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

@WIA Sorry but I don't hold Game to be this omnipotent force that you seem to. I don't believe Game can overcome a lack of basic sexual attraction for example. We always want to blame the outcome on the guy not having tight enough Game like if Game can somehow compensate for all of the factors that enter into a girl's decision and reactions. Women are emotional creature and their emotions have more to do with their thoughts than your game. You can do everything 100% right and still get screwed over by a dozen factors that you are not even aware of much less able to compensate for.

I think this is a bit of a straw man argument. Clearly dudes look to Game when they fail with a particular chick to see what they might have done better but it's fairly well accepted that no amount of Game will guarantee you'll be able to sleep with whomever you want. Every time a new guy comes in asking how he can get a specific girl all the experienced guys tell him to forget her and move on. If we believed Game was omnipotent we'd offer advice on how to get particular women and one-itis wouldn't be a big deal.

That said I don't think it's unreasonable to focus on what could have gone better have things go south with a girl. Sometimes it really is that she's not buying what I'm selling but often times I can tell she was interested for a bit but then I couldn't keep it going. In those situations I can learn and get better so that the next time I'm in a similar situation with another woman I can take the interaction farther.

[Pinocchio]

game is a sales process and buyers remorse is certainly common.

[Nomad77]

Ok, the thread is unraveling again as they usually do So let's get back to the point I am trying to make:

You meet a girl and is interested in having some sort of relationship with her, whatever that is, you want to see her more than once, bang her more than once. Do you (A) push for the bang as quickly as possible, using everything at your disposal, or (B) push for the bang, to let her know you find her sexual attractive, BUT do not push too hard - allow it to occur in a more natural, organic way.

I am asserting that if you chose A that the probability of having any kind of relationship decreases vs option B. And there are multiple reasons for this, and probably the biggest one being:

1. How we will view the girl. Personally, doesn't matter how modern and forward thinking I would like to think of myself, I always view a girl that sleeps with me immediately or within days of knowing her as having a lower value than one that does not. Because if she will give herself to me just like that she will do with someone else and what she has given me is nothing special. We only value things we have to work for, that's human nature. So forget about the girl, I will immediately devalue her and so will all of you.

2. If the girl felt she acted inappropriately for whatever reason she will feel, like Spaniard said, that she has already lowered her value or that she has already messed up. This has happened to me quite a few times where I got a girl do some crazy stuff one night only to never see her again. In contrast, this never happens when the girl feels this has not happened. Let's be honest with ourselves here, we treat women with a double standard when it comes to sex. Who on here is going to tell me that they will hold the same respect for a girl they take home and bang the same night vs one that they could not? And women know this, regardless of how modern they may like to think of themselves.

3. By pushing hard for sex we communicate a couple of things whether we like it or not. That sex is our primary objective, we just want a piece of ass, that we may be "player" if we are very smooth about it, that we think the girl is the type of girl that just puts out to any guy. None of which puts us in a positive light in the girls mind.

So given this, you have a choice: A or B. In my personally experience, I have lost more girls by having sex too quickly vs waiting a few dates. I have never lost a girl by waiting a few dates BUT I have lost a few girls I wanted to see again by turning them into a slut on the first date. And here is the really interesting part, again as Spaniard pointed out, even when the girl wanted to do crazy shit immediately the relationship never last because she felt I would never value her as someone that never did any of this stuff with so quickly. And you know what? She is right!

[reaper23]

in my experience, i've seen that sex at first meeting turns into repeat business less frequently than sexual relationships that began on the second or third meeting.

i'm also not interested in ejaculation focused sex, ie. casual random hookups.

so maybe i screen for that.

its really all about your long term strategy. mine is to have a foundation of multiple women (usually 7's, 7.5's) who keep me sexually sated and take care of me (book trips, buy clothes, run errands), while using that foundation as a launch pad for abundance oriented IDGAF approaches of the hottest women around. and then I rotate those through as play things unless one rises to the top and demands more time because she is particularly well behaved.

so i'm not pressed for sex ever and i like taking my time. i get more satisfaction out of a woman making a conscious decision to be my sex toy than to have it all happen 'so quickly' and bc of alcohol.

regarding the above post re: being perceived as a player especially if smooth about the whole thing. i get this problem a lot. the music is too perfect, the lighting too perfect, i have towels on hand, bed is clean and made, vibe to easy. i get push back like, just how much sex do you have? or how many other girls did this very same thing this week? i have to try and smooth that out, bring down the player vibe. honestly, i think i'm just too smooth and unpressed.

the other rejection i get is the, 'i can see myself falling for you and i dont want to get hurt' line.

i'm struggling with finding the right response on that one.

anyway, in sum, i need/seek longer term sexual relationships in order to develop the women into the lovers i need. a chick never comes to me ready for what i need. it always takes grooming. thus, i got no worries waiting and rarely (twice last month) push for first night sex. and when i do, it rarely turns into repeat business.

[ColSpanker]

Fascinating stuff, Nomad.
In my current sales job (as long as it lasts), I never employ Hard Sell. Why? Because I am selling a service (on-going relationship) and it's based on them using us on a regular basis (multiple orgasms). There's no contracts (obligations) and they can cancel service (take a cab home) anytime they want. So I don't want to set up a situation where the customer (girl at the bar) will have regrets and cancel the service (never want to see me again).

[Nomad77]

Thanks for correlating it with your current sales job.

[Ensam]

So Nomad77, how do you handle the girls who want the hardsell?

I'm sure every dude has come across a girl who put up a shit ton of last minute resistance and then got upset when he didn't push through. This is one of the greatest mindfucks women pull on blue pill guys who respect no-means-no (for the lurkers: of course no always means no - except when it doesn't).

[Nomad77]

As this not so smart girl once told me: I may not know about a lot of things but I know when a guy wants to fuck me.

The dumbest of girls know that men want to fuck them. This is not news to any girl. It is very rare for a woman that really likes you to penalize you for not pushing hard enough by not seeing you again. If she does, she really didn't like you that much then. More likely, she will give you a second chance and reduce the resistance. Basically when a woman likes you, she will help you to build a relationship with her. When she doesn't really she will make it all but impossible.

One of the most powerful tactically move I consider part of my arsenal today is actually withholding sex. In a world where getting sex from men on demand is the norm, the guy that does not give it, stands out - way out.

[Nomad77]

Obviously this thread applies to guys that are looking for relationships with women. It won't apply to guys looking for ONS. But at least the ONS guys should be aware of the potential fallout. I am not a ONS guy as anyone who has been following my threads know by now. I am a relationship guy. Even if I am just having sex with a girl I want it to be within the context of some sort of relationship.

[General Mayhem]

This is a great thread, tons of good info here.

I've been all over the spectrum.

I used to be the kind of guy that girls would fall in love with because of how not thirsty I was. I was sexual but I never pushed that hard for sex, it just always happened. That's when I was more of a natural I guess.

Fast forward to the last year or so I have done nothing but push hard for sex, and it's a completely different story. I have had sex with more girls than ever before but I haven't built the kind of relationships that I used to build, and I don't connect with these girls the way I used to connect.

What I've learned is that for me it helps to spend some time getting into a girl's head before I start getting into her pants.