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[WestIndianArchie]

Well at least you're on the right board.

Can you hold a conversation with a stranger that you're not interested in sleeping with?

WIA

[Truth Teller]

Narcissism (by itself) is not a good thing for game. Positive self-image is. If you look at yourself and believe that you're a man attractive to women... you'll become one. It helped me a lot.

[Giovonny]

Yes.

It's very good for game.

[Nonpareil]

(01-10-2014 04:23 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Yes.

It's very good for game.

Let's just take a gander at some of the symptoms of this so-called 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder':

Quote:

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings

Taking advantage of others

Trouble keeping healthy relationships

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narciss...N=symptoms

Not one guy I've met who holds his own with women doesn't do all of these things at least some of the time. Is Narcissism good for game? Going off the above, Narcissistic Personality Disorder may as well be renamed 'Game'.

Sure, it might negatively effect your ability to have a meaningful relationship with a woman, but realize that as men, there's plenty of time for that shit later, and ask yourself if you really want that.

EDIT: My advice to you: You got your looks and your style in order, great. Keep your assholery, but learn to toe the line a little better in social situations. Girls love assholes, but charming assholes, not bitter ones and not guys who openly air bad attitudes about women in public forums.

[Nascimento]

Yes.. but think a humble narcissist.

Hank Moody is a great example.

[j r]

In a addition to thinking about narcissism, you should look for posts in Roissy's archives on the difference between being a caring and an uncaring asshole.

If you're dismissive towards women because you legitimately value yourself over them, you can do very well. If, however, you're dismissive towards women because you've got a chip on your shoulder and something to prove, a lot of women will see right through. You'll still attract some women, but they'll trend towards the self-loathing and mentally ill.

[All or Nothing]

(01-10-2014 02:55 AM)dads Wrote:  

I've always looked at most girls as dirt (example of my level of assholery: was well known for coining the term "cumpit" to describe a particular slutty group of ladies in high school), except for the ones I liked for whatever reason. My buddies would say "dude, you just have to be nice to girls and you'll get laid".

I am less experienced than a lot of guys on here, but after reflecting on my successes and failures from last year, I think you have to be a friendly asshole.

You have to be friendly in terms of smiling, making eye contact, cracking jokes from time to time, listening, having a warm vibe, etc.

At the same time you have be an asshole in terms of escalating physically, isolating the girl, leading, not caring if you lose her, pushing for sex, etc.

It's an odd contradiction, but I think finding the right balance between being an asshole and being friendly is key to success with women.

Right now it sounds like you are not very friendly, so the first thing I would work on getting a more positive vibe.

[Comte De St. Germain]

I'm a proud narcissist, so yes being one helps your game tremendously. I'm still inexperienced with cold approaches(still in the middle of my first 100), but I've gotten lays through my social circles(school, charity work, etc.). Every one was because I projected that self-worth, and some even approached me on their own because they heard of me. Also in conversations( as stated above), play the charming asshole. Give yourself a slight grin and seem positive in a conversation, but always be condescending and teasing the girl(pretty much soften your personal criticisms into jokes) and you will be good.

[roberto]

Narcissist here. Always loved myself, so to speak. Never realised it was an asset until I started reading red pill and PUA stuff online.

[VincentVinturi]

Narcissism is NOT good for game. For the simple reason that it isn't good for the self.

That's not to say that some narcissists don't get a lot of pussy. But it's debatable whether that's because of the narcissism or in spite of it. Hemingway, a heavy drinker, is considered one of the best writers of this era. But was he brilliant because of alcohol abuse or in spite of it...?

So let's define what narcissism is so we can all be talking about the same thing.

Narcissus was a character from Greek Mythology who fell in love with his own reflection (self-image).

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Narcissus was walking in the woods when Echo, an Oread (mountain nymph) saw him, fell deeply in love, and followed him. Narcissus sensed he was being followed and shouted "Who's there?". Echo repeated "Who's there?". She eventually revealed her identity and attempted to embrace him. He stepped away and told her to leave him alone. She was heartbroken and spent the rest of her life in lonely glens until nothing but an echo sound remained of her. Nemesis, the goddess of revenge, learned of this story and decided to punish Narcissus. She lured him to a pool where he saw his own reflection. He didn't realize it was only an image and fell in love with it. He eventually realized that his love could not be addressed and died.

In psychology, the idea of narcissism is having a particular self-image, striving towards that self image, and feeling great cognitive dissonance when you fail to live up to it (as inevitably happens). In short, it's having a notion about who you think you are, rather than who you actually are.

An example: Narcissism, in my case, came from my upbringing by an overbearing grandmother who continually praised me as "the smartest boy". When another boy outdid me on a test or in some mental pursuit, I denied that he was superior. That would have violated my self-image, reinforced from the outside, as being the smartest boy. The smartest boy cannot be bested by a lesser boy. Thus, I was deeply deluded into my late teens, thinking that I was smarter than everybody else. This attitude did not make me the most popular guy. People don't like people who think they're smarter than everybody else...

What profoundly changed my attitude was dropping any ideas of how I should be, and instead embracing life with every moment. Whatever came out of that moment, if I lived it intensely, totally and with full awareness, THAT is who I was. Trying to mold yourself to an external idea of self-hood is toxic to actual being and the sure way to miss life.

There's a powerful spill over into game here.

Think about the classical game dichotomy of asshole vs. nice guy. If you consider yourself a "nice" guy, you won't allow yourself to be an "asshole" because it runs counter to your self-image of a nice guy. If your self image is that of an asshole, you won't ever allow yourself to be one of those push-over nice guys. That, too, would run counter to your idea of self. Both ways are wrong.

The sustainable way, the way that brings peace and comfort with who you are as a living being, is the path of asking yourself what you want deep down inside and always letting your actions flow from that feeling. In a word: live spontaneously.

A certain self-image, whatever it may be, is narcissistic by definition. It's just like a creed. "Do this. Don't do that." Yet a creed has no consideration for the uniqueness of every person, situation and circumstance. It teaches dogmatic adherence, over awareness.

It is the same idea as "Jews are bad, you're a Jew, so you're bad" as opposed to "you are a human being here in front of me right now. What kind of person are you? Let's find out." It's the same thing as going up to a girl with a canned line like

"hey, do you like horses?"
"...no."
"oh...ok, so you like horses, cool. So my friend, right...?"

Trying to fit the external over the internal is sabotage. Narcissism requires a static self. But game requires dynamism. The ability to go into situations and find out who you are rather than bring some notion of who you are to it. In fact, many pre pill guys would never in a million years identify with the red pill message because their self image ran so counter to what they now hold up as truth.

So narcissism is unhealthy. It is anti-awareness, anti-spontaneity, anti-self. Even if you get some pussy, no good will come of it. Better to be at peace with yourself and get pussy than live like a tortured man and get pussy.

[Comte De St. Germain]

(01-12-2014 11:04 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

Narcissism is NOT good for game. For the simple reason that it isn't good for the self.

That's not to say that some narcissists don't get a lot of pussy. But it's debatable whether that's because of the narcissism or in spite of it. Hemingway, a heavy drinker, is considered one of the best writers of this era. But was he brilliant because of alcohol abuse or in spite of it...?

So let's define what narcissism is so we can all be talking about the same thing.

Narcissus was a character from Greek Mythology who fell in love with his own reflection (self-image).

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Narcissus was walking in the woods when Echo, an Oread (mountain nymph) saw him, fell deeply in love, and followed him. Narcissus sensed he was being followed and shouted "Who's there?". Echo repeated "Who's there?". She eventually revealed her identity and attempted to embrace him. He stepped away and told her to leave him alone. She was heartbroken and spent the rest of her life in lonely glens until nothing but an echo sound remained of her. Nemesis, the goddess of revenge, learned of this story and decided to punish Narcissus. She lured him to a pool where he saw his own reflection. He didn't realize it was only an image and fell in love with it. He eventually realized that his love could not be addressed and died.

In psychology, the idea of narcissism is having a particular self-image, striving towards that self image, and feeling great cognitive dissonance when you fail to live up to it (as inevitably happens). In short, it's having a notion about who you think you are, rather than who you actually are.

An example: Narcissism, in my case, came from my upbringing by an overbearing grandmother who continually praised me as "the smartest boy". When another boy outdid me on a test or in some mental pursuit, I denied that he was superior. That would have violated my self-image, reinforced from the outside, as being the smartest boy. The smartest boy cannot be bested by a lesser boy. Thus, I was deeply deluded into my late teens, thinking that I was smarter than everybody else. This attitude did not make me the most popular guy. People don't like people who think they're smarter than everybody else...

What profoundly changed my attitude was dropping any ideas of how I should be, and instead embracing life with every moment. Whatever came out of that moment, if I lived it intensely, totally and with full awareness, THAT is who I was. Trying to mold yourself to an external idea of self-hood is toxic to actual being and the sure way to miss life.

There's a powerful spill over into game here.

Think about the classical game dichotomy of asshole vs. nice guy. If you consider yourself a "nice" guy, you won't allow yourself to be an "asshole" because it runs counter to your self-image of a nice guy. If your self image is that of an asshole, you won't ever allow yourself to be one of those push-over nice guys. That, too, would run counter to your idea of self. Both ways are wrong.

The sustainable way, the way that brings peace and comfort with who you are as a living being, is the path of asking yourself what you want deep down inside and always letting your actions flow from that feeling. In a word: live spontaneously.

A certain self-image, whatever it may be, is narcissistic by definition. It's just like a creed. "Do this. Don't do that." Yet a creed has no consideration for the uniqueness of every person, situation and circumstance. It teaches dogmatic adherence, over awareness.

It is the same idea as "Jews are bad, you're a Jew, so you're bad" as opposed to "you are a human being here in front of me right now. What kind of person are you? Let's find out." It's the same thing as going up to a girl with a canned line like

"hey, do you like horses?"
"...no."
"oh...ok, so you like horses, cool. So my friend, right...?"

Trying to fit the external over the internal is sabotage. Narcissism requires a static self. But game requires dynamism. The ability to go into situations and find out who you are rather than bring some notion of who you are to it. In fact, many pre pill guys would never in a million years identify with the red pill message because their self image ran so counter to what they now hold up as truth.

So narcissism is unhealthy. It is anti-awareness, anti-spontaneity, anti-self. Even if you get some pussy, no good will come of it. Better to be at peace with yourself and get pussy than live like a tortured man and get pussy.

Not really, I'm pretty well grounded, but I love myself more than any dumb broad. I find myself to be the only real priority and everything else is secondary. I strive towards the mental self-image I have of myself to better myself. That mental image is the goal of who I want to be and why I love myself, and there is no problem with that. I will pull pussy because I am superior, because I can adapt, because I live by my own morals, because I have seen a good portion of the world as well as having many experiences, and because I am the best there is. Narcissism is not static, it is the constant struggle to be your ideal self that you know you are and that you love.

[ikkyu]

(01-12-2014 11:12 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

Not really, I'm pretty well grounded, but I love myself more than any dumb broad. I find myself to be the only real priority and everything else is secondary. I strive towards the mental self-image I have of myself to better myself. That mental image is the goal of who I want to be and why I love myself, and there is no problem with that. I will pull pussy because I am superior, because I can adapt, because I live by my own morals, because I have seen a good portion of the world as well as having many experiences, and because I am the best there is. Narcissism is not static, it is the constant struggle to be your ideal self that you know you are and that you love.

That doesn't sound like narcissism in the clinical sense. Narcissism is prevalent in our society but it's becoming a kind of buzzword that gets thrown around. The term itself is pretty vague and can refer to all kinds of different shit but narcissism as a personality disorder does have defining attributes.

What really characterizes narcissism is a weak sense of self reliant on constant external validation. A narcissist constructs an idealized self-image and imposes it on themselves as a model of what they SHOULD and MUST be. It is not an ideal to aspire to in a process of self-actualization, the narcissist actually identifies themselves as being this character they have invented and experiences anxiety and psychological pain whenever they become aware of themselves as anything but this role they have invented for themselves.

I'll quote some choice bits from Wikipedia and expand on them:

"The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder can be similar to the traits of individuals with strong self-esteem and confidence; differentiation occurs when the underlying psychological structures of these traits are considered pathological. Narcissists have such an elevated sense of self-worth that they value themselves as inherently better than others, when in reality they have a fragile self-esteem, cannot handle criticism, and often try to compensate for this inner fragility by belittling or disparaging others in an attempt to validate their own self-worth. Comments and criticisms about others are vicious from sufferers of NPD, in an attempt to boost their own poor self-esteem."

A narcissist is constantly comparing themselves with others. They are paper tigers putting on a show of strength that hides an inner weakness of which they are deeply ashamed. The idealized self of a narcissist is the type of person that they believe would be highly valued by others. Therefore they are constantly seeking proof that others do indeed value them as exceptional over other people. Despite the pretense of being over and above others they are extremely dependent on those they scorn. They are thrown into turmoil by criticism and their feelings are very easily hurt despite the cold and invincible façade.

This weak, externally referenced self-esteem makes the narcissist the quintessential hater. I'd personally say being a hater is the ultimate tell that someone is a narcissist. They are full of envy: if they see someone else having success beyond theirs they become upset and consider the situation an injustice rather than admire the other person for their demonstrated virtues and attempt to learn from their example.

Narcissists do not criticize others in a principled or honest way. When they go on the offensive it is not to express and uphold their own values but simply to cut the other person down in order to look superior by comparison. Since a narcissist's measure of their value is based on comparison with others self-improvement is not the aim. It is simply to look better, which can be achieved by lowering others without having to lift oneself. The Roissy dichotomy between the caring and the uncaring asshole really comes into play here.

"Another narcissist symptom is a lack of empathy. They are unable to relate, understand, and rationalize the feelings of others. Instead of behaving in a way that shows how they are feeling in the moment, they behave in the way that they feel they are expected to behave or what gives them the most attention."

Lack of empathy is not much of a strength, to be honest. One does not automatically defer to another persons feelings simply by virtue of understanding them. If you want to criticize or influence another person it really helps to know what makes them tick. Worse still a narcissist is disconnected from their own emotions and just simulates feeling whatever would fit their script. That sounds pretty damn weak to me.

I think Vincent Vinturi pretty much nailed it. The superficial similarities of a narcissist and a confident and self-motivated man of action might achieve superficially similar results. Lots of narcissists get laid like tile. But they embody the straw man archetype of the miserable player using his conquests to try to fill an inner void. A narcissist follows their script rather than their desires. He'll fuck a chick he doesn't want and can't stand because he thinks it will impress people. He'll avoid going after what he actually wants for fear of criticism. That is pure anti-game: outcome dependence, playing by someone else's rules, setting aside your own goals for someone else, etc.

I feel like ironically enough now that it's become trendy the narcissist label is used in a narcissistic way: to shame and disparage people who are genuinely extremely confident and follow their own compass rather than playing by a script handed to them. What better way for a weak person to neutralize the threat a strong person poses to their self-esteem than to paint them as a pathetic fraud? Maybe conceited, arrogant, or egotist would fit but I'd never want to refer to myself as a narcissist.

[Comte De St. Germain]

@ikkyu
I see your point in this, but I'm saying it more as a societal label rather than the psychological disorder. I am by no means a clinical narcissist, but simply labelled as one. I like the connotation of what it is rather than the denotation if that is what you mean, and I think that is what OP is talking about.

[ikkyu]

Whatever works for you, man. I can def. see handling accusations of narcissism by being like "Yeah, and what?". A real narcissist would probably get butthurt, after all.

In general I don't like the idea of equating game to narcissism though. It's like the kind of shit you'd read on Jezebel as proof that guys into game are evil sleazy losers who trick girls into having sex with them while actually never getting laid and being frauds because game doesn't work (lol).

[Comte De St. Germain]

@ikkyu
I get what you mean bro lol. Game is a solid model whose results you can't prove wrong. Any person with half a brain can see that being a beta does not help for shit. As men whose goal is living a good life screw labels we are still getting the most out of it while people like Jezebel are unattractive and live unfulfilled. The end game is self-fulfillment and that is what we are doing. Kudos to you man.

[FrenchCanadian]

don't confuse self confidence with narcissism.

i think having empathy & humility, is too important for game, to say that being narcissistic would be "good".

I don't think any personality disorder will ever be "good".

[funkyzeit]

Yes it is. People confuse narcissism with unstable "look at me" persona. Today's women are a mixture of those two and some bipolar stuff occasionally sprinkled in, while a male narcissists are often borderline or complete psychopaths, which is a highly attractive trait.

[Jackreacher]

Part of being an attractive narcissist when it comes to game is your delusional self aggrandizement has to be something that women on some level want to be a part of despite them having to put up with some shitty behavior, they'll find it par for the course when it comes to being with someone they perceive to be a "winner". For that being charming is a part of it, being able to puff up their self esteem is an ability you need to have as well as being able to drop their self esteem in the most unexpected moments for even trivial things like not cooking you eggs at 2am when u demand it. Also many women won't like this and so it takes certain women who crave this kind of thing, these violent ups and downs in the relationship but there it is.