[Que enspastic]

(12-02-2013 06:50 PM)Grit Wrote:  

So you are really saying you don't care if 5% much less 50% go gay. since you don't care about anyone but yourself, why don't you suggest you coulndn't care if .001 percent of society is gay, thats a win win. Win you don't care, win you make guys like rooshvers happy.

ps if you care so much about yourself, I guess paying all those taxes for liberal baby mommas pisses you off, and you would never vote liberal, amiright?

No I would care because a lower percentage of gays puts more straight men into the bars and clubs I go to and makes the ratio worse. So it affects me negatively.

As for baby mommas I'd be willing to strip back govt welfare and see what happens. I care because I get taxed more than I think is prudent. My bet is that these women would then have to rely more on public charity, their families and/or the men who knocked them up. It would be harsh at first but for subsequent generations it would make them less likely to take risks that would see them get pregnant.

[Kimber]

What we perceive as attractive is biologically and culturally influenced, just like our sexuality. I'm sure that this well get lost in the myriad posts on this topic but there is a ridiculous amount of unverified opinion flying around here.

No one knows how much culture can influence what is considered attractive, how do you even establish a metric to measure this?

It's well documented and evident that western perception of attractiveness has changed over the past 100 years, and even more significantly over the past 1000 years. It's also well documented that a gay gene exists. It's also documented that the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be gay, if you are a set of all male twins/triplets you are more likely to be gay as well, the chance rising exponentially with each additional male foetus. It makes genetic and evolutionary sense that people are born gay, but can you be culturalised into homosexuality?

In Japan, up until world war 1, it was commonplace for men to have young boys as mentees, a part of that mentee relationship was sexual. A young boy would show his status with long hair, and thus his availability for 'mentorship'. On his 17th birthday, it would be cut off. It was forbidden for two men to have sex (a man is deemed a man at 17, when his hair is cut off) but a man and a young boy was ok. What arbitrary and confusing laws.

In Sparta and ancient Greece, some of the fiercest and most masculine societies the world has seen, homosexuality (the act of gay sex) was rampant, encouraged to promote bonding, and accepted. Greek bathhouses anybody?

These two examples show us that society definitely plays a part in condoning/forbidding homosexuality, and as we've come from a past of forbidding/resisting homosexuality we can only measure through contrasting our experiences.

A survey finished in 2012 found that in the UK 2.7% of men aged between 16-24 self-identified as gay, compared to 0.4% of men aged 64 and over. That is almost a 700% increase in less than a generation. This begs a question or two.

Is that because being gay is accepted so more people are willing to come out? Is that because more men are being socialized into being gay? Do lower testosterone levels increase sexual fluidity in men?

Follow up questions - if sexuality is fluid, is it society's role to make every concession for heterosexuality, even if that means the possibility of homophobia? Should the approach be more laissez-faire? Or should society preach acceptance?

Also where are people pulling the 8-10% from? everything I've read suggests it's lower than 4%

[soup]

What about machines?

Some people think that we are moving towards a society where we will all be in a computer.

Sex might not matter at that point.

All of guys who are here right now, we are all in caveman bodies. Yes, their are epigenetics, but you can't make meal out out sawdust and rubber.

A guy is going to crave pussy like a lion wants meat. That's nature. You guys are worried about men being swayed into homosexuality- maybe you aren't taking into account that there are guys who are going to want pussy regardless of whether or not some other guys dress in drag in the Thanksgiving day parade.

Is it a war of ideas or a will nature win out? If it is a war of ideas, I don't think a bunch of guys trying to tell people what not to do is going to win.

The reason Tuthmosis' post hit such a chord was not because he was telling people what to do. He was stating a preference, and if it wasn't real, then there would have been no controversy.

But it is real. Most guys don't like fatties. Most guys don't like dick.

What's so hard to understand about that?

[j r]

(12-02-2013 12:19 PM)kdolo Wrote:  

The Controllers push homosexuality and heterophobia.

I don't know. These guys seem like they're into chicks. The dance moves may be a bit suspect, but it was probably just the times.

[KorbenDallas]

I think the main point of Roosh, I could be wrong, is that normal masculinity is being shamed. Anyone who's grown up in the US recently knows this unless you grew up in the South.

Shaming heterosexual behavior in addition to the lack of attractive females for most men can screw up young men's psyche.

[WalterBlack]

(12-02-2013 07:20 PM)Kimber Wrote:  

What we perceive as attractive is biologically and culturally influenced, just like our sexuality. I'm sure that this well get lost in the myriad posts on this topic but there is a ridiculous amount of unverified opinion flying around here.

No one knows how much culture can influence what is considered attractive, how do you even establish a metric to measure this?

It's well documented and evident that western perception of attractiveness has changed over the past 100 years, and even more significantly over the past 1000 years. It's also well documented that a gay gene exists. It's also documented that the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be gay, if you are a set of all male twins/triplets you are more likely to be gay as well, the chance rising exponentially with each additional male foetus. It makes genetic and evolutionary sense that people are born gay, but can you be culturalised into homosexuality?

In Japan, up until world war 1, it was commonplace for men to have young boys as mentees, a part of that mentee relationship was sexual. A young boy would show his status with long hair, and thus his availability for 'mentorship'. On his 17th birthday, it would be cut off. It was forbidden for two men to have sex (a man is deemed a man at 17, when his hair is cut off) but a man and a young boy was ok. What arbitrary and confusing laws.

In Sparta and ancient Greece, some of the fiercest and most masculine societies the world has seen, homosexuality (the act of gay sex) was rampant, encouraged to promote bonding, and accepted. Greek bathhouses anybody?

These two examples show us that society definitely plays a part in condoning/forbidding homosexuality, and as we've come from a past of forbidding/resisting homosexuality we can only measure through contrasting our experiences.

A survey finished in 2012 found that in the UK 2.7% of men aged between 16-24 self-identified as gay, compared to 0.4% of men aged 64 and over. That is almost a 700% increase in less than a generation. This begs a question or two.

Is that because being gay is accepted so more people are willing to come out? Is that because more men are being socialized into being gay? Do lower testosterone levels increase sexual fluidity in men?

Follow up questions - if sexuality is fluid, is it society's role to make every concession for heterosexuality, even if that means the possibility of homophobia? Should the approach be more laissez-faire? Or should society preach acceptance?

Also where are people pulling the 8-10% from? everything I've read suggests it's lower than 4%

In the UK homosexuality was decriminalized in 1967: Sexual_Offences Act 1967

I would guess that a lot of guys of the older generation grew up in an era were being gay could have made a guy end up in prison. Maybe a lot of potential gays decided to live straight lives?

Afghanistan has a lot of gayness too:

Quote:

In Afghanistan women are not allowed to dance in public, but boys can be made to dance in women's clothing - and they are often sexually abused.

It's after midnight. I'm at a wedding party in a remote village in northern Afghanistan.

There is no sign of the bride or groom, or any women, only men. Some of them are armed, some of them are taking drugs.

Almost everyone's attention is focused on a 15-year-old boy. He's dancing for the crowd in a long and shiny woman's dress, his face covered by a red scarf.

He is wearing fake breasts and bells around his ankles. Someone offers him some US dollars and he grabs them with his teeth.

This is an ancient tradition. People call it bachabaze which literally means "playing with boys".

The most disturbing thing is what happens after the parties. Often the boys are taken to hotels and sexually abused.

The men behind the practice are often wealthy and powerful. Some of them keep several bachas (boys) and use them as status symbols - a display of their riches. The boys, who can be as young as 12, are usually orphans or from very poor families.

[Teutatis]

Quote:

In Afghanistan women are not allowed to dance in public, but boys can be made to dance in women's clothing - and they are often sexually abused.

It's after midnight. I'm at a wedding party in a remote village in northern Afghanistan.

There is no sign of the bride or groom, or any women, only men. Some of them are armed, some of them are taking drugs.

Almost everyone's attention is focused on a 15-year-old boy. He's dancing for the crowd in a long and shiny woman's dress, his face covered by a red scarf.

He is wearing fake breasts and bells around his ankles. Someone offers him some US dollars and he grabs them with his teeth.

This is an ancient tradition. People call it bachabaze which literally means "playing with boys".

The most disturbing thing is what happens after the parties. Often the boys are taken to hotels and sexually abused.

The men behind the practice are often wealthy and powerful. Some of them keep several bachas (boys) and use them as status symbols - a display of their riches. The boys, who can be as young as 12, are usually orphans or from very poor families.

Not only is this disturbing and disgusting, what is the point of dressing up a male to look like a woman instead of simply just using a women in the first place? How fucked up are these people?

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(12-02-2013 08:53 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  

Quote:

In Afghanistan women are not allowed to dance in public, but boys can be made to dance in women's clothing - and they are often sexually abused.

It's after midnight. I'm at a wedding party in a remote village in northern Afghanistan.

There is no sign of the bride or groom, or any women, only men. Some of them are armed, some of them are taking drugs.

Almost everyone's attention is focused on a 15-year-old boy. He's dancing for the crowd in a long and shiny woman's dress, his face covered by a red scarf.

He is wearing fake breasts and bells around his ankles. Someone offers him some US dollars and he grabs them with his teeth.

This is an ancient tradition. People call it bachabaze which literally means "playing with boys".

The most disturbing thing is what happens after the parties. Often the boys are taken to hotels and sexually abused.

The men behind the practice are often wealthy and powerful. Some of them keep several bachas (boys) and use them as status symbols - a display of their riches. The boys, who can be as young as 12, are usually orphans or from very poor families.

Not only is this disturbing and disgusting, what is the point of dressing up a male to look like a woman instead of simply just using a women in the first place? How fucked up are these people?

This is the other side of the coin. When you completely repress gay culture it pops up in strange ways. The men are still gay, they just find ways to make it acceptable -- by saying they're "keeping" boys for status. My guess is that the teenage boys who do these dances and are kept are also gay.

In New York City there is an equivalent to this, in an informal network of old rich "queens" who take in troubled young gay guys. This is not a new thing either -- it's the subject of the Elton John song, "Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road."

[kbell]

Speaking of gays, do you think this commercial tries to normalize butt piracy? Its almost aimed at kids but this guy is over the top flamboyant.

[Norset]

(12-02-2013 09:02 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

This is the other side of the coin. When you completely repress gay culture it pops up in strange ways. The men are still gay, they just find ways to make it acceptable -- by saying they're "keeping" boys for status. My guess is that the teenage boys who do these dances and are kept are also gay.

Seems to me the Afghanistan case is caused by repressing male/female sexual relations, not by repressing homosexuality. Afghanistan is also polygamous, so there are a lot of unmarried men. The older, more dominant men, who "keep" boys, have wives for sure. But, being dominant alpha men, they want to hunt strange on the side.. and can only do so with teenage boys, since women that are not your wife is strictly off limits. And so those of them with gay tendencies act them out. The extra status also helps.

My addition to the understanding of the normalization of male-male relationships and gay marriage:

An important (subconscious) reason for why gay marriage is being praised by women is that it's a stepping stone to women's natural relationship preference; polygamy. We already live in a soft-harem world, but polygamy would rub more salt in the wounds of 90% of men. At the moment middle-class men know that they have a decent shot at kids and a family if they just "stick it out" until they can find some older "mature" (25+) girl who wants to settle with a decent provider. The wife has been passed around, but her reproductive capacity can still be yours.

What if she could be wife #3 of a top 10% guy? Ironically the top 10% guys are generally not down to marry in the first place, since marriage not needed for sexual access...

[la_mode]

I personally don't believe in "queer transference". You don't just become it. Some on the forum are sounding like right-wing republicans believing as LGBT becomes accepted, more will magically become gay. If they do - that's less competition for us straight guys. As LGBT becomes more accepted, more men who were already gay to begin with will come out, but there will always be more (or just as many) closet homosexuals as out.

Look on craigslist at how many married guys are looking for a MFM threesome, but only using that as a roundabout for gay behavior. In every city across the US. Those guys are more than likely gay and cannot admit it to themselves.

Another interesting thing, when researcher J Michael Bailey implied that so-called bisexual men were actually gay, it was seen as controversial. Even the gay community can't make up their mind on what's gay and what isn't. Then they say that the most anti-gay men are truly gay. There's even a masculine community of gays that embrace masculinity and call themselves "bears".

Since the beginning of time, there's been a gay presence in the world, and only recently has it become a full-scale political movement, which is why it scares people now.

End of the day, you aren't, so who cares.

[Dusty]

There's a lot homosexual men who choose a heterosexual lifestyle. I met a few, but they tend to be 60 or more years old. They act totally gay. Like that Dana Carvy character (the effeminate heterosexual man).

They married and had children, but seemed fucked up. They were a product of their time. They succumb to the pressure to conform.

It's funny when they talk about a girls "fabulous" tits with a lisp.

[Matt Forney]

To everyone who's in favor of more gay men because you think that it'll mean less competition to get laid, you're neglecting a crucial problem with this:

Gay men are one of the biggest reasons why American women are fat, bitchy and slutty.

Have you seen how gays interact with their "fag hag" friends? They reinforce every single negative behavior that girls engage in. Sluttiness? Gays are fully on-board with slut pride, and even those that aren't don't see anything wrong with sleeping around because they do it (on average, homosexual men outpace lesbians, straight men and women exponentially when it comes to partner count). Bitchiness? Gays will encourage it with you-go-grrlisms. Fattiness? There are some exceptions, but it's mostly the same deal. The worst part is that since they're gay, they'll never be confronted with the consequences of their actions.

You may think that the minuscule percentage of gay men makes their ability to poison the female well limited, but you're forgetting how susceptible girls are to media manipulation. Twenty some-odd years of propaganda (shows like Will and Grace etc.) have made having a gay friend cool and hip, something to aspire to, while wallpapering over the negative aspects of mass homosexuality (HIV and venereal disease, mental illness etc.). American girls, or at least girls in urban areas, idolize gay men and regard them as founts of wisdom. In fact, you could make the argument that gay men are worse for girls than straight white knights, because the latter are low-status losers trying for a pity fuck while the former have been lionized by the mainstream media.

Gay men represent the best of both worlds for girls: a white knight who will shore up her ego yet has no sexual interest in her.

So if the percentage of gay men rises, you will find it easier to score... with girls who are slovenly, unpleasant to be around, and have seen more cock than a rooster farm. I'll think I'll pass.

[poutsara]

Interesting posts on this topic here.

I still don't know to what degree gay/bi/straight is genetic, environmental, choice, or some combo.

I do know that as long as I can remember, I knew what I liked. I remember even at 10 or 11 or 12 I would steal the lingerie and swimsuit adds from the newspapers my parents got and run to the bathroom to jerk off to them. Hey, I had no access to internet porn (didn't exist then, if it did I'd never have left my room!), no cable TV, nothing! I think I even jerked off to nintendo games with crude graphics of girls if I had nothing else to go from - I had to work with what I had, and it wasn't much but I knew what I wanted! I also knew what I was going to do as soon as I was old enough to be taken seriously haha. That was it for me! The rest is history! And a good history at that.

But a few of my friends I grew up with turned out to be gay. Interesting, in every case but one I saw that coming years in advance. One particular friend back in college, was in a fraternity. He was incredibly gay but the guy had game and access, better than me back then for sure. I never saw him with a girl alone. But God bless him because I got to go to some good parties because of him. He told me a few years after college that he was gay, and I said, yeah no shit. He told me that for his entire life when I was going to the bathroom growing up to jerk off to whatever pics of girls in bikinis I could find, he was looking for pics of dudes. No doubt in his mind either what he wanted. And the guy has always been happy with it apparently. Hey, thats life!

There was one guy however who I've known forever who tuned out to be gay, and I never saw it coming. Normal family, he played sports at a pretty high level in high school, smoked a ton of weed too for what it's worth, I DID see him with girls, not often though but they were hot when I did see them. He hit a rough patch some years ago though, got depressed, went downhill for a while. Told me he was also depressed about his sex life, basically that he was struggling with girls, his career, maybe his health. I gave him the best "game advice" I could, but he seemed to get less interested. After that, he "came out" as gay, or bi, or something like that. Part of me thinks its his depressed mood that pushed him in that direction, but who knows. If that's the case, then it's really a tragedy.

Overall, it's got to be some combo of genes, early environment, and choice. True statement here though, I must say that when any of my friends have come out as gay, it's changed the friendship, and not in a good way. Not sure why, but I think such a large percent of male friendships revolve around a "team" mentality with regard to banging girls, that when two guys can't agree on the value of that goal, something fundamental is lost.

[Quintus Curtius]

I completely agree with Roosh's article. Without doubt, homosexual behavior is being coddled and encouraged in America. It is being done for several purposes:

1. As a societal "pressure valve" to siphon off the rage and anger of sexually frustrated young men who can't find decent females, who look around them and see nothing but fat, ugly bitches. The idea is that if we can steer these guys towards gayness, they won't realize how dismal the male-female mating situation is.

2. As a support mechanism of feminism (the "fag-hag" is the best friend of feminist misbehavior)

3. As a method of population control in an era of dwindling resources. (Interestingly, Aristotle himself speculated that population control may have been a driving force behind institutionalized homosexuality in ancient Greece).

And all of this is being done very subtly, very deviously. It's been going on now for many years.

[la_mode]

(12-03-2013 01:12 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

To everyone who's in favor of more gay men because you think that it'll mean less competition to get laid, you're neglecting a crucial problem with this:

Gay men are one of the biggest reasons why American women are fat, bitchy and slutty.

Have you seen how gays interact with their "fag hag" friends? They reinforce every single negative behavior that girls engage in. Sluttiness? Gays are fully on-board with slut pride, and even those that aren't don't see anything wrong with sleeping around because they do it (on average, homosexual men outpace lesbians, straight men and women exponentially when it comes to partner count). Bitchiness? Gays will encourage it with you-go-grrlisms. Fattiness? There are some exceptions, but it's mostly the same deal. The worst part is that since they're gay, they'll never be confronted with the consequences of their actions.

You may think that the minuscule percentage of gay men makes their ability to poison the female well limited, but you're forgetting how susceptible girls are to media manipulation. Twenty some-odd years of propaganda (shows like Will and Grace etc.) have made having a gay friend cool and hip, something to aspire to, while wallpapering over the negative aspects of mass homosexuality (HIV and venereal disease, mental illness etc.). American girls, or at least girls in urban areas, idolize gay men and regard them as founts of wisdom. In fact, you could make the argument that gay men are worse for girls than straight white knights, because the latter are low-status losers trying for a pity fuck while the former have been lionized by the mainstream media.

Gay men represent the best of both worlds for girls: a white knight who will shore up her ego yet has no sexual interest in her.

So if the percentage of gay men rises, you will find it easier to score... with girls who are slovenly, unpleasant to be around, and have seen more cock than a rooster farm. I'll think I'll pass.

You do make some good points. The way it currently is, the "out & proud" gay population is still too small to really offset any disparities in ratios.

There are a lot more men in the dating ages 18-40.

Imagine for instance that almost half of all men identified as gay and weren't interested in women in the slightest (unlike the bi guys). That would have to be offsetting.

Years ago in the late 90s in my late teens, watching Elimidate one night, they went to South Beach. The guy on the show was an obvious player type guy. They asked him what he loved most about South Beach.

His reply "Beautiful women and half the guys are gay".

Over the years, they say that's changed and it's more of a mixed destination now (with a strong gay presence), sort of what they say West Hollywood is becoming, although West Hollywood probably still leans more gay.

[reaper23]

the homophobia expressed on this thread is alarming to me.

[NY Digital]

(12-03-2013 12:20 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

the homophobia expressed on this thread is alarming to me.

And why is it alarming to you?

This is a forum about gaming women, as well as a masculine lifestyle.

Getting porked in the ass is not masculine.

[scorpion]

(12-03-2013 12:20 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

the homophobia expressed on this thread is alarming to me.

Homophobia is one of those words that has no real meaning, but is just used to shame and silence people. Much like 'creepy' is used to shame a man who unapologetically hits on a woman, or 'racist' is used to scare people away from speaking honestly about race issues.

No one labeled 'homophobic' is afraid of homosexuals, as the word would suggest. They simply don't want to live in a culture that is inundated with homosexual propaganda. If you told me you didn't eat dairy, I wouldn't call you lactophobic. I'd just think you didn't like dairy for whatever reason. The objection to a thing does not imply a fear of it.

I object to the cultural promotion of homosexuality as being equal with heterosexuality. I do this not out of fear of homosexuality, but out of the logical fact that homosexuality is deviant (abnormal) sexuality that has no business being exposed to children. Just as I would not want to expose children to prostitution, BDSM, pedophilia, bestiality or even the pump and dump player lifestyle.

It's in the interests of society to encourage children to develop with normal views on sexuality. Bombarding them with homosexual propaganda only confuses them. Honestly, would you want your children to learn about BDSM, prostitution or bestiality? Do you think that is a recipe for helping them develop healthy views on sexuality? Of course not. No responsible parent would do something like that. And yet society has convinced parents that the sexual fetish of homosexuality is harmless and that children should be exposed to it in the name of 'tolerance'. It's disgusting.

And it begins with shaming language like 'homophobia'. Anyone who objects to allowing children to be exposed to endless homosexual propaganda in the schools, media and culture is called a bigot. I reject that label. I am not homophobic. I am not even anti-homosexual (as far as individuals go). I am anti-homosexual propaganda in society. Deviant sexuality belongs in the bedroom, not in the public square.

[TheRookie]

(12-02-2013 07:20 PM)Kimber Wrote:  

A survey finished in 2012 found that in the UK 2.7% of men aged between 16-24 self-identified as gay, compared to 0.4% of men aged 64 and over. That is almost a 700% increase in less than a generation. This begs a question or two.

Is that because being gay is accepted so more people are willing to come out? Is that because more men are being socialized into being gay? Do lower testosterone levels increase sexual fluidity in men?

Kimber,

Homosexuals die younger than the rest of the population. During the great homosexual coming out party of the 70s and 80s the homosexual community was ravaged by the "gay cancer," which was eventually discovered to be AIDS. Other common causes of death among homosexuals in this period were drug use and suicide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9923159

Here is a gay guy who saw dozens of his friends die off. He was immune to AIDS, but he still committed suicide at 66. The story is so stereotypical it is almost laughable.

Unprotected sodomy with hundreds or thousands of partners is not only deviant but destructive behavior. Also, a lot of gays are so vain and narcissistic that they can't bear to get wrinkly and not attract men anymore. Just look at all the 50 year old Peter Pan gays on steroids and HGH wearing the latest fashions, scared to death of growing old.

"Bug chasers" are an extreme form of this masochistic, self-destructive behavior.

Now gays continue to die from suicide at a high rate but drug use has declined slightly.

Gay mortality may increase in the near future.

[Sonsowey]

Attraction is of course both cultural, environmental, and biological.

Look at how many people are marrying and having children with absolute land whales.

You might say we are biologically programmed to be attracted to fit young healthy women. Yet you see all around you there ARE men who are shacking up wtih old ugly out of shape women.

In a country where 2/3 of people are overweight, many men just have to settle. These guys probably DO get boners for their wives. They reproduce.

Biological urge to reproduce is a strong driver, even if you can only do it with an uggo. Don't act like our biological urges are only to the hottest of the hot. You may feel best when getting them but it's no secret why people who can't get laid with hotties do in large number settle with the bottom of the barrel.

[Quintus Curtius]

(12-03-2013 12:20 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

the homophobia expressed on this thread is alarming to me.

It's not a thread about homosexuals. It's a thread about the propagation and promotion of homosexual lifestyles. There's a big difference.

[soup]

(12-02-2013 10:51 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Speaking of gays, do you think this commercial tries to normalize butt piracy? Its almost aimed at kids but this guy is over the top flamboyant.

I'm all for gay rights and freedom, but this guy does seem a little fake or against nature etc.

[Blaster]

(12-02-2013 02:18 PM)J.J. Wrote:  

What do you consider "normal"? If they are born gay, how is that not normal?

[reaper23]

If a straight society with built in gay shaming as we have had here forever can't effectively coerce all gay people into being straight why do you think a gay accepting society will coerce straight people into being gay?