[Kickb]

I was very socially awkward in high school and it has been quite the struggle coming out of my shell in college. I have made great strides and have ditched old beta behavior but this is one i am having a really hard time overcoming. For whatever reason I smile entirely way too much. Anytime i am in a conversation it seems as if i laugh and smile all the time. I will always try to correct it, but it comes back sooner or later. While i do have a nice smile I would much rather prefer to just have a grin or a emotionless face for the majority of my conversations instead of a smile that, by habit, is plastered to my face combo'd with laughing at alot of unfunny shit.

Thanks in advance for any input

[Nonpareil]

All I can really tell you is when you're chatting with some girl be conscious of it. Like most game, at first its something you'll need to monitor all the time, but evenually you'll just do it by osmosis.

Agreed on it though, one of the first (and worst) pieces of advice I read was 'Smile a lot! Girls like guys who are fun, and if you smile you look fun!'. While true girls do like fun guys, if you're always smiling you look like you'e thrilled to be talking to her, which comes off eager to please. Stone-faced with a hint of a small smirk is the way to go.

[hydrogonian]

I completely disagree with all of this.

I agree that smiling too much, for some guys, is bad. But if the rest of your inner game is good, than smiling too much doesn't mean shit. I actually lose respect for guys that can't or don't smile. I know they are insecure and just covering shit up with a cold demeanor. A secure alpha guy is himself, and does what he wants. He doesn't smile, or not smile, to gain social control. Unless its to combat the controlling behavior of someone else who is putting on airs. If thats the case, then it can be necessary. But then the social situation is uncomfortable and undesirable, no matter what.

There is a difference between smiling for approval and smiling because you want to. Maybe that's the difference between what we are talking about. I will smile a lot, but also there are long periods where I won't smile. Its about what I feel like doing, and nothing is done for social control either way.

[Badstuber]

Quote:

A secure alpha guy is himself, and does what he wants.

The smiling is being himself, so he is a secure alpha guy.

[hydrogonian]

(11-11-2010 10:39 AM)Badstuber Wrote:  

Quote:

A secure alpha guy is himself, and does what he wants.

The smiling is being himself, so he is a secure alpha guy.

I see where your making the connection, but I think that it also goes deeper with him. If he is getting bad reactions because he is smiling too much, then there is probably some other approval seeking behavior going on. I agree that changing the smiling frequency isn't the answer, as he will probably just be the creepy guy who doesn't smile then. As it is now, some people probably like his unpretentiousness, even if he does seek approval and smile too much. If he stops smiling, he will be the unhappy and pretentious approval seeking guy (creepy).

So, change the inner game, not the smiling. Just my opinion.

You could cut back on the laughing though. I doubt that social interactions are funny enough to warrant constant laughing. But if things are that funny, just have a good time. Who cares. Not caring is actually what it comes down to. Your going in the wrong direction if you start adjusting your behavior more toward caring what other people think.

Think about the magnetic guy who has a group of girl "friends" that follows him around regularly. He also fucks one or more of them on his whim, and no one feels bad about it or has any jealousy. He's the most care free guy that you know, and has no enemies. This is the guy that lives in the moment and who everyone likes. He's the Buddha. He'sthe coolest guy in the room.

When you think about this guy, this invariably is not the guy who doesn't smile a lot. He's the opposite. However, everything is done for his joy and pleasure, and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks.

[Giovonny]

Of course there is nothing wrong with smiling and laughing. We all smile and laugh because we want girls to smile and laugh with us. But, i get the sense that this guy is smiling and laughing to cover up some insecurity or weakness in his inner game.

This is just like the girls who are constantly giggling because they are nervous. This is basically the same thing. And it sounds like you are aware of it. Your laughing probably comes across as nervous/awkward laughter. Fix your fear and the awkward laughing will correct itself. Improve your inner game and all your mannerisms and body language will also improve.

How do you improve your inner game and get over your nervousness? Easy, keep studying successful guys and most importantly, approach hundreds of girls and make sure you are having conversations with cute girls EVERYDAY. Be aware of your issue but don't overanlayze it. Its normal to be nervous and with a few months of dedicated practice you can make huge improvements. Your weak nervous laugh needs to become a strong i don't give a fuck laugh.

[speakeasy]

Most smiles and laughs aren't because you're genuinely reacting to something funny with the laugh being an involuntary reaction to it. Most are to break tension in conversations, or even "courtesy laughs" where there was little or no humor in the situation, but you felt it was an appropriate social reaction to avoid an awkwardness. Like if a guy goes in for the kiss but she's not ready in pulls back, he'll probably let out a little laugh as an anxiety-breaker. A guy smiling too much can also come across as really approval-seeking.

I think once you get to a point where you are really in control of the frame, you'll probably find yourself naturally doing less of this gratuitous laughing and smiling. Don't get me wrong, laughing and smiling is cool and the best laughs and smiles are those that come from something so funny you can't help but laugh and smile. Any chic you can make laugh so hard she can't control it is yours.

Just monitor yourself in all interactions with people. If you do it with girls, you probably do it with guys too. If a guy says something he thinks is funny and you didn't find it funny at all, don't give out the fake laugh just to please his ego. Try something different, like just changing the subject.

[Kickb]

Lot of good responses here I appreciate it. The thing that really hit home what that i need to approach a lot more than i am. I have been digesting everything this forum has to offer, roosh's blog, roisys blog, and the g manifesto blog. I have read Bang and some other book by a donjuan website. Even with all of this knowledge that i obtained, I have found that i am only using it on my already existing social circle of girls(except for one girl, but that didnt work out) so i am not practicing talking to new girls.

basically I need to get out in the field!

[Bad Hussar]

If you're super-confidant, and usually the coolest guy in the room smiling and laughing a lot isn't a problem. If you're a bit neurotic and typically get nervous in social situations it's a big problem. You look like a fool laughing and smiling at nothing all the time. My advice would be:

When you catch yourself starting to smile or laugh at something stupid in future stop before it progresses to a full smile or laugh and just smirk/half-smile instead. Guys will not like this so try not to do it with your guy friends, but girls will wonder what you're thinking and it will drive them crazy trying to figure it out. This is good, even if they claim to be upset.

[Roosh]

Gotta disagree with hydrogonian. Smiling when she's not just puts out a weird/creep vibe. I've noticed this problem too much while teaching students, and can see firsthand its damaging effects.

Keep working on it. Try having conversations with yourself in the mirror.

[Roosh]

"Secure alphas" don't smile for no reason. I've never met one.

[hydrogonian]

(11-12-2010 02:55 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

"Secure alphas" don't smile for no reason. I've never met one.

I think we're talking about the same thing. If there is no reason to smile, it's likely approval seeking behavior. Or at least lack of emotional control (being spastic). I agree with you in that regard, and don't recommend smiling for no reason. That will come off as beta/weird every time.

But if there is a legitimate reason to smile, I don't think he should hold back, as that will put him in a mindset of adjusting his behavior to meet a woman's expectations. I think that's a bad road to go down in terms of his inner game, even if it does get him some short term results. Anyone can put on stone cold demeanor. But those guys get old after a while, especially to higher quality people (men and women). When pursuing a conscious strategy of adjusting emotional behavior, continuously, I think the problem lies in him knowing when its better to smile than to hold back (the opposite side of the coin). He may come off as too calculated and stilted after a while.

I think its hard to gauge this guys demeanor without seeing it first hand. He might benefit from practicing being stone cold, if for nothing but gaining practice in not reacting so emotionally to everything. Once he gets that down, he will come off better while being himself.

So that's the solution, imo. Practice keeping your emotions to yourself for a while. Hold back on the smiling and laughing. And then slowly ratchet it back up to a normal level. You'll likely be more balanced after that exercise, and can then be yourself without thinking about it so much. Allow yourself a little bit of smiling, or the people you know will think the change too strange. Just be cognizant of your emotional expression for a while.

Once you find a better balance, you will find yourself promoted on the alpha scale. Also, you will be able to use the stone cold demeanor around the weak people who are asking for it and over whom it will allow you to gain instant power. That's not a bad skill to have, when it's called for.

[HD668B]

(11-12-2010 02:56 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

I think we're talking about the same thing. If there is no reason to smile, it's likely approval seeking behavior.

And if there is a reason to smile, don't, it will create tension. Tension is good.

[newb69]

Thinking about this, whenever I have smiled and laughed excessively around women, it's always been when I am excited/very happy to be speaking with them. So I would try and curtail your cheerfulness unless of course it's mutual.

[RexImperator]

I think I might have the "smiling like a beta problem." It's a reflexive thing when I meet someone new and seems to be more of a problem at night. During the day sometimes I forget to smile or smirk (which I think is what is preferable). This has ended up giving a negative vibe to women when I give strong eye contact. They smile at first from the eye contact but then they look upset. I don't do this too often...mostly at times when I tend to get lost in thought. I guess I'm in the "conscious incompetence" phase of learning game.

[Pride male]

Beats not smilling or laughing at all.

[Giovonny]

(10-03-2014 01:06 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I think I might have the "smiling like a beta problem."

I used to have to same problem.

I have slowly adjusted my smile to appear more "alpha".

(10-03-2014 01:06 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

During the day sometimes I forget to smile or smirk (which I think is what is preferable).

For me, smiling IS preferable.

Not smiling was hurting me for a few years.

I get a better response when I smile.

---

If you want me to evaluate your smile and help you adjust it, we can skype.

(11-12-2010 02:55 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

"Secure alphas" don't smile for no reason. I've never met one.

I'm not sure if I am a "secure alpha" or not, probably not, but, I do often smile or smirk slightly before I approach girls.

The reason why I do this is because it makes me appear more social, confident, welcoming and less threatening. It also helps my vibe and helps me get into a good mental state.

I smile because I am lucky and I like my life. I smile out of gratitude.

[Feo]

All of these issues I think can be worked out by hitting the gym hard. Just my two cents

[AnonymousBosch]

(10-03-2014 01:06 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I think I might have the "smiling like a beta problem." It's a reflexive thing when I meet someone new and seems to be more of a problem at night. During the day sometimes I forget to smile or smirk (which I think is what is preferable). This has ended up giving a negative vibe to women when I give strong eye contact. They smile at first from the eye contact but then they look upset. I don't do this too often...mostly at times when I tend to get lost in thought. I guess I'm in the "conscious incompetence" phase of learning game.

At guess: if you're an intense looking man, you're holding the initial eye contact too long and intimidating her. This is particularly true of Millennial Girls.

What I do: make eye contact, then look obviously away at something else for a few beats, like you're so used to girls checking you out that you don't pounce like a tiger at the first hint of female attention and are now distracted by something else important.

You want her to think your attention is now focused on something else, and you didn't entirely register her, so she is now safe to look at you. This is why you wait just a few beats, then look back before she expects it, to try and catch her checking you out.

Now you hold the eye contact longer than before, disarming her with embarrassment, and flash your smirk: a controlled smile, with one side of your mouth. Make sure the corner of the smile is curled up to read as genuine and confident rather than false and awkward.

If she's embarrassed or blushing, make your approach.

I know this is hard to explain in words, so i'll have to illustrate.



Note top pic how my lip curls up to the left. Slightly narrow your eyes as you do this, you'll read cocky as hell, which was the mood I was in.

Note my fake horizontal smile in the lower pic, when I'm at a social gathering full of people I despise, and my natural introversion has reached its overload point and I'm tired of keeping up a mask of extroversion. I know I need to get the fuck out the door, into some quiet and recharge, and yet my girlfriend and I are begged to pose for a photo before we leave. See how false the smile is?

Girls mightn't be able to vocalise the difference, but their heightened social awareness means they can spot confidence vs awkwardness damn easily. Even the broken Millennial ones.

Practise controlling your smile, and it will become second nature.

[AnonymousBosch]

dupe

[General Mayhem]

I have a natural one-sided smirk, but my default is intense. I had a girl tell me I had resting bitch face once.

For you to try and be like me would be counter productive. If you already have your own style focus on refining it into something that works a little better, like Gio has done. That kind of vibe works better with millennials anyway.

[AnonymousBosch]

^ Except there's plenty of evidence that faking it til you make it works, particularly with T-Production. The longer you do it, the less rehearsed it'll become, and will read as natural.

[Checkmat]

I feel like correcting your thinking and inner game issues will automate your physical responses and make them seamless. The problem here is trying to appear cool, fun and relaxed when you're feeling anything but.

[RexImperator]

(10-04-2014 03:26 PM)Feo Wrote:  

All of these issues I think can be worked out by hitting the gym hard. Just my two cents

I agree that the benefits are many but I don't think that's my issue in this case...I've done so for over a year and I'm now deadlifting in the low 400's x5 and squatting in the mid 300's x5.

[AnonymousBosch]

(10-04-2014 08:19 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

The problem here is trying to appear cool, fun and relaxed when you're feeling anything but.

Confidence strikes me as the appearance of not caring about the approval of others because you're secure in yourself. Even a brutal rejection from a girl is her loss. You have to hone in on that mindset.

No girl is so unique and special you have to worry about striking out with her, because another one just like her will cross your path soon enough.