[Onto]

For the men who are interested in LTR's, like myself, the challenge of changing a women's behavior can be a lifelong struggle.

Here is what I've found that often works very well, in some situations.

First off, never fault a women for her bad behavior. This will get you nowhere's. Why try to use reason and logic with a gender who is so firmly opposed to it and quite frankly not very capable of it?

If you fault her, she will:

1) Get defensive.
2) Try to rationalize why she is in the right.
2) After convincing herself she is in the right, attempt to fault you for faulting her.

Why go there when there is a much more effective solution.

This solution is for situations where you can "role model" her behavior. For situations where you can't, there is another method, but it's kind of dangerous and if not done to the "T" can lead to very undeseriable effects.

Let's say a woman is exhibiting a behavior that is driving you nuts. What you must do instead of faulting her is "role model" her behavior by doing exactly what she is doing to you, to her.

Of course, you don't let her know you are doing this for the express purpose of showing her what it feels like, but she "Will" feel it, and that's the only way women can "know".....through "feeling"

After you start role modeling her behavior she'll approach you about it. Your response at that point:

1) Act a little surprised and say innocently, "Oh, I'm sorry I didn't know this wasn't ok, I thought it was because a couple weeks ago you were doing.....".

2) Don't say anything else. This is the most important step. You must let her think about what you said. Too many times you will fuck this manuever up because she may be silent for a long time while thinking. Do not break the silence because during this moment is when she is "learning". If you break the silence you will be letting her off the hook.

3) After the silence she may respond in a few different ways.

* Either she will say she doesn't want you doing that and she won't either. If this happens, great, you won, agree and drop the subject.

* She may instead say that it's ok for you to keep on doing the behavior. She will say this because she doensn't want to stop herself. If that happens then say ok, and just keep on role modeling. The subject will come up again in the near future, if it doesn't then you may want to consider dumping her.

* Another reaction is she may want to delve more deeply into the subject, which at that point you can say, well, if you want us to both stop doing this behavior I'm ok with that. She will either agree or want to keep doing the behavior, in which case, more role modeling.

So, if she wants to vacation alone with her friends, you do the same. She wants to have guy friends, get yourself some girlfriends. She wants to relativize you by mentioning other guys, you do the same with other girls. She want's to be glued to her iPhone you do the same at moment's she want's your attention.

The most important thing to remember is to never fault her, because when you do you are trying to use the tools of the masculine (logic, reason) on the feminine who's tools are (feeling, experience, intuition).

Simply put you must fight fire with fire.

In college I had a friend who was the star football player, super-handsome, charasmatic, etc. Every girl wanted him and he was natuarlly in love and in a realtionship with the most beautiful girl on campus. He proposed, she hemmed and hawed and said that she wasn't sure and the she wanted to date some other guys just to be sure he was the one. Naturally he was devastated, so he took his revenge and banged her roomate, the girls who lived on her floor, her friends. Eventually word got back to her and she rushed up to him and said, "Listen, I don't need to date other guys, let's get married"

You want to keep a woman in line, be a good role model.

[el duderino]

This is good advice. For those who are getting into a relationship, getting married, or whatever...this is exactly the type of mindset that will help keep things in line.

I used this same philosophy on my fiance earlier in our relationship when she decided to get a twitter account. Naturally guys came at her left and right and she enjoyed the attention as any woman will do. It didnt reach a point that i thought about nexting her, but it was headed in that direction.

I simply logged onto my twitter account that i had but hadnt used in a long time and started openly flirting with girls. Began to openly flirt more in real life too. Not 48 hours goes by and she admits it bothers her and she is jealous. Kept doing it and the twitter shit eventually stopped.

Its a good way to keep hand in the relationship. Kudos to Onto for laying it out for everyone.

[el duderino]

This is good advice. For those who are getting into a relationship, getting married, or whatever...this is exactly the type of mindset that will help keep things in line.

I used this same philosophy on my fiance earlier in our relationship when she decided to get a twitter account. Naturally guys came at her left and right and she enjoyed the attention as any woman will do. It didnt reach a point that i thought about nexting her, but it was headed in that direction.

I simply logged onto my twitter account that i had but hadnt used in a long time and started openly flirting with girls. Began to openly flirt more in real life too. Not 48 hours goes by and she admits it bothers her and she is jealous. Kept doing it and the twitter shit eventually stopped.

Its a good way to keep hand in the relationship. Kudos to Onto for laying it out for everyone.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

Your method is too complicated and still relies too much on logic and reason. Why go through all that effort just to keep a woman? Why act like a woman to get back at a woman with all this roleplay nonsense?

My method:
Me: "Don't do that."
She: "Don't tell me what to do blah blah blah blah"
Me (calmly) : "Then get out of here and don't come back."
She (shouting): "That's not fair!"
Me (cold as ice): "I'm the man, I make the rules. I don't have to be fair if I don't want to. You don't like it, find another boyfriend. No one is holding a gun to your head to keep you here."
She: "You're right, I'm sorry about blah blah, I won't do it again. Please don't kick me out."
Me (condascendingly) : "Good."

The best way to keep a relationship going is to be willing to destroy it.

[MHaes]

^^Yep, agree with Thomas's advice.

It's whoever is willing to walk away from a relationship that holds the power.

Granted, if you aren't the right type of guy then what Thomas and I are saying is just going to hurt your game. You have to actually be willing and able to walk away (and not have that phase you) or else when you try to pull it off you are just gonna come off as a bitter jealous try hard.

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 06:13 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

Your method is too complicated and still relies too much on logic and reason. Why go through all that effort just to keep a woman? Why act like a woman to get back at a woman with all this roleplay nonsense?

My method:
Me: "Don't do that."
She: "Don't tell me what to do blah blah blah blah"
Me (calmly) : "Then get out of here and don't come back."
She (shouting): "That's not fair!"
Me (cold as ice): "I'm the man, I make the rules. I don't have to be fair if I don't want to. You don't like it, find another boyfriend. No one is holding a gun to your head to keep you here."
She: "You're right, I'm sorry about blah blah, I won't do it again. Please don't kick me out."
Me (condascendingly) : "Good."

The best way to keep a relationship going is to be willing to destroy it.

Obviously you would only go through the time and effort of role modeling if you wanted to be in an LTR with her.

I'm curious, how does the mehtod I outlined rely on using logic and reason?

Your technique "may" win the battle of the moment, but I doubt it would win the war because she will resent you for what she feels as her freedom being taken away for your benefit. She is agreeing with you because she doesn't want to lose the realationship, not because she has gained an awareness of her bad behavior. I suspect she will intenally blame you for being the ego and make you pay later on or in some other area of the relationship.

Role modeling enables her to not only feel like she is making the decision to change because she "wants" too but also gain some kind of insight into her own egotism and take ownership of the bad behavior.

It depends on what you are looking for, a short term fix, or a long term solution.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

(08-20-2013 07:50 AM)Onto Wrote:  

I'm curious, how does the mehtod I outlined rely on using logic and reason?

Your method relies on a woman's sense of fairness, and her being able to put to come up with a logical response to your role-modelling.

This is assuming a lot.

I can't see your method working in the long term. It puts too much pressure on women to assess and manage their own behaviour, when what they want in life is to be given orders.

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 08:26 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 07:50 AM)Onto Wrote:  

I'm curious, how does the mehtod I outlined rely on using logic and reason?

Your method relies on a woman's sense of fairness, and her being able to put to come up with a logical response to your role-modelling.

This is assuming a lot.

I can't see your method working in the long term. It puts too much pressure on women to assess and manage their own behaviour, when what they want in life is to be given orders.

I don't see it as her coming up with a logical response, but instead being derived from her feelings. The point I'm trying to make is one cannot "explain" anything to a woman because that's trying to use reason/logic. She can only know through "feeling", thus through role-modeling you put her into feeling for the purpose of gaining knowledge.

You said that women want to be given orders. While that's true for some types of American women, it's not true for most due to feminism. I wonder if there is cultural difference here between women in South Africa and America?

[Vicious]

I can't help but feel that some people here are confusing the work of keeping a woman in line and to change her.

The former is something that you maintain every day. If you're with a good woman she won't challenge you quiet as frequent but she will need to be given direction.

But too truly CHANGE a woman? Who had that patience and energy? That's something you can consider for the mother of your children or a life mate. For other women, meh... If she was a mess before you got there, don't try to fix it.

[Duke Castile]

I have to say, this method of "role modeling" is more of a "mirroring" type of thing that seems to me to be very passive aggressive as well as effeminate. You are basically saying, "when she acts like a female, act like one back to her".

I'm not a relationship specialist but this does not seem to be a technique that comes from a place of strength. In fact, it seems downright petty.

I agree with Thomas, tell her to knock it off or get lost.

And as Vicious just pointed out, that kind of soft serve approach isn't going to "change" any woman that's doing those sorts of things. I think it will wind up as a war of escalation.

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 02:32 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I have to say, this method of "role modeling" is more of a "mirroring" type of thing that seems to me to be very passive aggressive as well as effeminate. You are basically saying, "when she acts like a female, act like one back to her".

I'm not a relationship specialist but this does not seem to be a technique that comes from a place of strength. In fact, it seems downright petty.

I agree with Thomas, tell her to knock it off or get lost.

And as Vicious just pointed out, that kind of soft serve approach isn't going to "change" any woman that's doing those sorts of things. I think it will wind up as a war of escalation.

If she is paying attention to other guys and you decide to pay attention to other girls to show her what it feels like, how is that being a woman? How is that being effeminate? I assume you give women attention when you're not in a relationship don't you?

A women is always trying to break a man down to subscribe to the feeling dimension of reality, whether it's through provocation, crying, yelling, or sensuality. When you get angry and scold her, she is winning because she has brought you into feeling (anger). It takes much more strength to take the hit on the chin again and again as you are positioning yourself for the killer blow. And how sweet it is when the killer blow you land on her she cannot fault you for or hold against you in anyway. That kind of win tastes very sweet.

[Jaylow]

Its a paradox.

How do you meet a woman that is worthy enough to try and change?

If I have to change something about her then she is not worth that effort in the first place.

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 09:18 PM)Jaylow Wrote:  

Its a paradox.

How do you meet a woman that is worthy enough to try and change?

If I have to change something about her then she is not worth that effort in the first place.

When you're ready, you meet them. All women are busted in some way. If you want an LTR or Marriage, I think you just have to find the best fixer-upper you can, roll up your sleeves and put in some work.

[Duke Castile]

(08-20-2013 09:15 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 02:32 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I have to say, this method of "role modeling" is more of a "mirroring" type of thing that seems to me to be very passive aggressive as well as effeminate. You are basically saying, "when she acts like a female, act like one back to her".

I'm not a relationship specialist but this does not seem to be a technique that comes from a place of strength. In fact, it seems downright petty.

I agree with Thomas, tell her to knock it off or get lost.

And as Vicious just pointed out, that kind of soft serve approach isn't going to "change" any woman that's doing those sorts of things. I think it will wind up as a war of escalation.

If she is paying attention to other guys and you decide to pay attention to other girls to show her what it feels like, how is that being a woman? How is that being effeminate? I assume you give women attention when you're not in a relationship don't you?

A women is always trying to break a man down to subscribe to the feeling dimension of reality, whether it's through provocation, crying, yelling, or sensuality. When you get angry and scold her, she is winning because she has brought you into feeling (anger). It takes much more strength to take the hit on the chin again and again as you are positioning yourself for the killer blow. And how sweet it is when the killer blow you land on her she cannot fault you for or hold against you in anyway. That kind of win tastes very sweet.

You're playing the jealousy game. That's a female manuever. No one said "get angry". You're projecting that. If anything we explained that there's a lack of emotion when saying "straighten up or get lost".

You think paying attention to other girls is a "killer blow"?

You should be doing that anyway.

You think girls are REALLY so fair and just that she's not going to say something because she's already given other men attention?

That's not how I'd run my house.

And please lay of the hyperbolic metaphors...you sound like you're selling something.

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 09:40 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:15 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 02:32 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I have to say, this method of "role modeling" is more of a "mirroring" type of thing that seems to me to be very passive aggressive as well as effeminate. You are basically saying, "when she acts like a female, act like one back to her".

I'm not a relationship specialist but this does not seem to be a technique that comes from a place of strength. In fact, it seems downright petty.

I agree with Thomas, tell her to knock it off or get lost.

And as Vicious just pointed out, that kind of soft serve approach isn't going to "change" any woman that's doing those sorts of things. I think it will wind up as a war of escalation.

If she is paying attention to other guys and you decide to pay attention to other girls to show her what it feels like, how is that being a woman? How is that being effeminate? I assume you give women attention when you're not in a relationship don't you?

A women is always trying to break a man down to subscribe to the feeling dimension of reality, whether it's through provocation, crying, yelling, or sensuality. When you get angry and scold her, she is winning because she has brought you into feeling (anger). It takes much more strength to take the hit on the chin again and again as you are positioning yourself for the killer blow. And how sweet it is when the killer blow you land on her she cannot fault you for or hold against you in anyway. That kind of win tastes very sweet.

You're playing the jealousy game. That's a female manuever. No one said "get angry". You're projecting that. If anything we explained that there's a lack of emotion when saying "straighten up or get lost".

You think paying attention to other girls is a "killer blow"?

You should be doing that anyway.

You think girls are REALLY so fair and just that she's not going to say something because she's already given other men attention?

That's not how I'd run my house.

And please lay of the hyperbolic metaphors...you sound like you're selling something.

It always amazes me how some so easily lay claim to be the knowers of things they've never done.

[Jaylow]

(08-20-2013 09:42 PM)Onto Wrote:  

It always amazes me how some so easily lay claim to be the knowers of things they've never done.

What doesn't amaze me is random people joining this forum and showing zero respect to prominent posters and trying to tell everyone how they got it all figured out. Enjoy your stay here while it lasts.

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 09:45 PM)Jaylow Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:42 PM)Onto Wrote:  

It always amazes me how some so easily lay claim to be the knowers of things they've never done.

What doesn't amaze me is random people joining this forum and showing zero respect to prominent posters and trying to tell everyone how they got it all figured out. Enjoy your stay here while it lasts.

I posted for the purpose of helping others. I'm not going to back down on what I know to be true because someone else has posted a lot.

Is anyone new, just a "random" person. Kinda cliquey don't you think?

[Duke Castile]

(08-20-2013 09:49 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:45 PM)Jaylow Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:42 PM)Onto Wrote:  

It always amazes me how some so easily lay claim to be the knowers of things they've never done.

What doesn't amaze me is random people joining this forum and showing zero respect to prominent posters and trying to tell everyone how they got it all figured out. Enjoy your stay here while it lasts.

I posted for the purpose of helping others. I'm not going to back down on what I know to be true because someone else has posted a lot.

I just don't see how copying the behavior of a girl is really going to change their behavior.

By all means keep posting. I was just wanting you to break it down more. I think if you've developed some great system then you can elaborate on it right?

[Onto]

(08-20-2013 09:52 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:49 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:45 PM)Jaylow Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 09:42 PM)Onto Wrote:  

It always amazes me how some so easily lay claim to be the knowers of things they've never done.

What doesn't amaze me is random people joining this forum and showing zero respect to prominent posters and trying to tell everyone how they got it all figured out. Enjoy your stay here while it lasts.

I posted for the purpose of helping others. I'm not going to back down on what I know to be true because someone else has posted a lot.

I just don't see how copying the behavior of a girl is really going to change their behavior.

By all means keep posting. I was just wanting you to break it down more. I think if you've developed some great system then you can elaborate on it right?

I didn't develop it, it was suggested to me, and I've used it several times with great success. I understand it's not the natural way to go about putting a woman in her place and it also may not work all the time, but it's my first line of defense and if it doesn't work then they may get the ultimatum, but at that point I would probably just show them the door.

I feel like I elaborated as much as I can on the steps, but if there's something specific you would like me to explain let me know and I would be happy to.

[liquiddrewl]

This lays out a good passive-aggressive reproach for what I would consider more minimal issues or early relationship things, at your discretion you also need the masculine-aggressive "shut the fuck up you bitch" to be used on girls in other situations.

[Jaylow]

(08-21-2013 12:38 AM)liquiddrewl Wrote:  

you also need the masculine-aggressive "shut the fuck up you bitch" to be used on girls in other situations.

You got it all figured out brah.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I appreciate all the game techniques to deal with female flaws, but I don't think game can change people. It only helps you adapt. For example, if a drama-prone girl left you in a hissy fit and you successfully maneuvered her back, you got her back but she is still drama-prone underneath and that will never change.

[WanderingSoul]

(08-20-2013 09:15 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 02:32 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I have to say, this method of "role modeling" is more of a "mirroring" type of thing that seems to me to be very passive aggressive as well as effeminate. You are basically saying, "when she acts like a female, act like one back to her".

I'm not a relationship specialist but this does not seem to be a technique that comes from a place of strength. In fact, it seems downright petty.

I agree with Thomas, tell her to knock it off or get lost.

And as Vicious just pointed out, that kind of soft serve approach isn't going to "change" any woman that's doing those sorts of things. I think it will wind up as a war of escalation.

If she is paying attention to other guys and you decide to pay attention to other girls to show her what it feels like, how is that being a woman? How is that being effeminate? I assume you give women attention when you're not in a relationship don't you?

A women is always trying to break a man down to subscribe to the feeling dimension of reality, whether it's through provocation, crying, yelling, or sensuality. When you get angry and scold her, she is winning because she has brought you into feeling (anger). It takes much more strength to take the hit on the chin again and again as you are positioning yourself for the killer blow. And how sweet it is when the killer blow you land on her she cannot fault you for or hold against you in anyway. That kind of win tastes very sweet.

If your girl is flirting with other guys then you might as well kick her to the curb. That is an ultimate sign of disrespect. Don't play her game back and forth. Let her know you won't stand for that shit, and if she does it again, tell her to kick rocks. I couldn't let a women continuously disrespect me in public like that.

I know a few guys who let their wives/girlfriends get away with blatant flirting. Had one guy, who is an acquaintance and I like that guy, had his wife follow me home and try to fuck me while he was at home with the kids. Apparently she's done it to one of his close friends as well, and I can tell the friend has also lost respect for him because of it. How can you let your bitch run around on you like that?

I like the dude, he's a cool ass guy, but I don't look at him the same anymore. They are having another kid and the only thing that comes onto my mind when he posts about it on Facebook is "That aint your baby!". I don't respect him the way I did before, even though he is a good guy.

And yeah, dudes with 1 rep are just "random guys" around here. No on knows you, no ones met you. You are just some random dude who stumbled onto the forum. That may change after a while, but as of now, you are just some dude whose opinion won't be taken too seriously until you make an impact here.

[Chaos]

Quote:

If your girl is flirting with other guys then you might as well kick her to the curb. That is an ultimate sign of disrespect. Don't play her game back and forth. Let her know you won't stand for that shit, and if she does it again, tell her to kick rocks. I couldn't let a women continuously disrespect me in public like that.

I totally agree with this. Flirting with other guys is the ultimate sign of disrespect.

Btw,I actually did one of the things Onto pointed out not long ago.
A Russian girl that I was dating kept talking about how cool some German dudes and then she booked a flight to Berlin.

Well, I thought WTF and told her that I'm not going to be here around anymore if she's going to Germany. I told her that I will later on that day book a flight to SEA. She became silent and after one hour she broke down compeletly and started to cry like a bitch and then she deleted her flight. I didn't say a single word. Then she told me that she only want me and she don't want to meet these German dudes after all.

[Onto]

(08-21-2013 06:37 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

Quote:

If your girl is flirting with other guys then you might as well kick her to the curb. That is an ultimate sign of disrespect. Don't play her game back and forth. Let her know you won't stand for that shit, and if she does it again, tell her to kick rocks. I couldn't let a women continuously disrespect me in public like that.

I totally agree with this. Flirting with other guys is the ultimate sign of disrespect.

Btw,I actually did one of the things Onto pointed out not long ago.
A Russian girl that I was dating kept talking about how cool some German dudes and then she booked a flight to Berlin.

Well, I thought WTF and told her that I'm not going to be here around anymore if she's going to Germany. I told her that I will later on that day book a flight to SEA. She became silent and after one hour she broke down compeletly and started to cry like a bitch and then she deleted her flight. I didn't say a single word. Then she told me that she only want me and she don't want to meet these German dudes after all.

That's a good example of how to role model.

Also I want to mention that after one was won, it's best to drop the subject and not fault her for what she was doing before. That would set off her defense mechanism and undo all the hard work. Chaos did well just to be silent and give her the opportunity to think.

Someone mentioned that you can't "change" anyone. This is true, they have to change on their own, but you can give them a push in the right direction and afford them the opportunity.

In my experience the best way to help another person really learn something is to put them into question which forces them to be reflective. Men can think intellectually, but women need to feel it. Role-modeling puts a women both into feeling and question.

When I break up with a woman I never tell her the reason, because if I do she will just use that info to enbale her defense mechanisms to rationalize her behavior, convince herself you are in fact wrong and she's really ok. Without a reason she's now in question, and being in question is true suffering. It's the worst pain you can put on her, but also the best thing you can do for her because it gives her the opportunity to see her own egotism and gain self-knowledge.