[Urban Renaissance Man]

OK, here’s a question that I think are on a lot of guys minds. It might have been addressed in individual posts, but I haven’t seen an actual topic dedicated to it. (Though I’m new here, so I could be wrong) I’d just like to know if the general belief on this board is that foreign women are actually worth brining back to the United States as a wife or not! We all believe that there are various countries that lend to good sexual experiences, etc., but what about an actual real relationship or wife? Can you ever really trust that a foreign woman actually loves you, or is it a given that she’s basically using you to, not only get to the United States, but also for the improved lifestyle that you could undoubtedly provide her? I’m also wondering what the true divorce statistics are for foreign arranged marriages vs. marriages domestically? Lastly, does anyone feel like the need to go abroad just to find women an unspoken admission of lack of game? Should that even be considered or should a guy be congratulated that he was able to find certain paradises where the women come more correct?

[oldnemesis]

I addressed it already. It depends on a guy, and what kind of girl he married. A common sense advice:

1. Learn the culture of a country you're bringing your wife from. Living in this country for at least 6 months, away from tourist places, and speaking at least basic language is must (not to mention that your chance to find a normal, non-pro girl is very low if you don't meet those conditions).

2. If you want to move her to USA, marry the girl of similar status to you, considering the status change in the USA. Meaning, if you're 50yo fat, bald and have kids from two previous marriages, do not marry a 18yo girl if you want to bring her to US and expect her to stay with you. Marry a 30yo woman with kids. This is less exciting, but after two years in US passes, she will not find herself of significantly more value and dump you as 18yo would do. The only way you can compensate the status difference (and safely marry an 18yo while being 50yo) is when your status in USA is significantly higher than other 50yo fat bold males here. For example, you may be very rich, powerful or a celebrity. In this case it will work.

3. In a lot of cultures "providing for a better lifestyle" is basically synonym of love. Western culture value independence, all Asian cultures do not. A Western girl could easily tell her family something like "I'm independent and I don't need your advice how to live my life". For Asian girl this would be an insult. Status and "face" matter a lot to them.

How open are you to accept a new culture, probably completely incompatible with what you've been taught? For example, are you able to beat your woman if necessary? In some foreign cultures if you mentally cannot do that, you'll be considered "weak", and she will turn you in a doormat.

If you tell us what country(ies) you consider, someone may be able to provide more specific advice.

[Caramel Communist]

Depends...
-you have to be careful..alot of women will love you until they reach a u.s. tarmac...then they turn into their true forms, especially from poor countries...

-the other poster is spot on...find someone who is on your level especially in South America. Because family and culture plays such a important role she will become homesick and bounce or worse, wanna bring the family up..

-make sure if you pick somebody who doesn't speak english, that they commit to learning it....nothing worse than bringing a woman back who can not speak english. You essentially become a babysitter..

-get married in the u.s. unless the laws are more favorable in her country in regard to alimony, parental rights, splitting assets, etc...

-but yeah, I think in the end I'll probably marry a foreign woman...just way more feminine than american women...

[iknowexactly]

I attempted to do this with a Ukrainian girl, much younger than myself.
I agree they may/will tend to ditch you once they get a read on their sexual value here in the land of fatties unless you're a hot young stud.

First off, if you want to have kids you're insane to do it in USA unless you're a multimillionaire and don't mind losing half.
( I did another post about this)

However, there are reasons besides this:

1) If she ditches you after you bring her to the USA you are liable to support her for 10 years according to your K1 fiancee visa agreement when you bring her to USA. She can ditch you for the local Russian guy and sponge off you. Not good.

2) The usual child support tyranny holds if you have kids with her here.

3) Young chicks change their minds a lot. That's what happened to me. You don't just "bring her here"-- the fiancee visa process takes about a year from the time you and her agree to it. So if you believe her, go to all the trouble of filing the stuff, and then spend the money to get her here ( ~1200 from EE) -- then she gets here, gets homesick and wants to go back. ( Mine told me her mother was sick. Sure. She lasted a week. ) that trip back-- another ~1200 . And you WANT to spend that money because if she stays in the US you are liable to support her.

4) Women age a lot faster there-- the stress, pollution, crowding, poor nutrition and lack of recreational exercise ( except walking for practical purposes, it's not the same as a joyful outdoor bike ride.)
I would say a 26 year old Russian looks like a 35-37 year old American ( A healthy American, not a lard machine) A 40 yo... like a 50 yo.. unless she is really careful. That means if you want hot you've got to go for a really young one who ( as mentioned above) really will be out of your league once she is here and finds out absolutely no 22 year old marries a 45 year old.

So- bringing her here can mean 2 years wasted- no nookie, 2 tickets there ( 2500)for you, 2 tickets for her ( 2500) to come and quit, and believe me you'll feel dumb.

Bottom line:

GO THERE ( EE, whatever) and STAY there, NEVER bring her here until you trust her with your LIFE, after maybe 5 years of unselfish loyalty.

If you do THAT-- advantages:

1) You're getting laid right from the beginning-- no long distance BS
( Writing on the wall with long distance relationships is when she starts taking more than a few days to write back-- she's vacillating and thinking of a way to ditch you. Voice of experience)

2) Any BS problems ( she really has a boyfriend there, really can't live without seeing her mother every day...is a drunk..etc..) you see then right away.

3) Any problems with Olga, Julia is right around the corner and you're back in the saddle with a changed lock on your apartment in 2 days, not 2 years of looking and filing for a fiancee visa and another $5000 of after tax money.

This is the voice of experience. I was dumb. Now I'm smart.

[Urban Renaissance Man]

Iknowexactly, how old are you may I ask? You have made some very good points. I'm curious to know how the guys on here feel in general about the need to go to a foreign country in the first place? Is going to such lengths a silent admission that you have no game? I mean, one of the reason why I'm contemplating about going abroad is because of the relative ease of attracting women, from the posts I've seen on here. Well, that automatically suggests that I must not be having the same ease here at home! I'm just wondering if there isn't more value in simple increasing ones game and mack abilities, rather that meeting women looking for a hero. Having said all of that, I do agree that it's better to date a girl in her own country for quite a while before bringing her back here!!! I think that after a few 2 week vacations, you'll have some idea if this girl actually is into you or not. She'd have to be a pretty good actress for me not to pick up on subtle cues concerning her genuine attraction. If her eyes don't light up when she sees me, STRIKE! If she isn't trying to rip my clothes off regularly, STRIKE! If she isn't trying to spend e very waking moment, STRIKE! If she isn't bring me occassional gifts or attempting to cook or doing other demonstrations of affection in an attempt to prove her value to me, STRIKE! You then know it's on to the next one. I think what more people need to keep in mind is that more than likely, the first 1,2,3,4,10 girls you meet probably aren't 'the one!' Just like in the US, you probably have to go thru a few of them before you meet one with wife potential. That's why I would say picking a country closer to home is the way to go. Unless you have the time and resources to spend months on end in a foreign country, you'll need to break up your fireign stay in stages. 2 weeks here, 2 weeks there. That can get costly and time consuming. Traveling to mexico every 3 months and staying for a couple of weeks is a lot more feisible than traveling to Russia and doing the same thing! Just a thought.

[oldnemesis]

(09-29-2010 01:56 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

1) If she ditches you after you bring her to the USA you are liable to support her for 10 years according to your K1 fiancee visa agreement when you bring her to USA. She can ditch you for the local Russian guy and sponge off you. Not good.

To the best of my knowledge, this is not true. To be specific, I-134 is not what you said, it is a statement that you guarantee that she will not become a public charge, i.e. won't apply for SSI, Medicare, Section 8 and so on. Since she is not eligible for SSI, Medicare or Sec 8 anyway, it has very limited applicability there. There is no specific duration (until she gets citizenship or leaves the country), and there is no requirement to support her otherwise.

Quote:

3) Young chicks change their minds a lot. That's what happened to me. You don't just "bring her here"-- the fiancee visa process takes about a year from the time you and her agree to it. So if you believe her, go to all the trouble of filing the stuff, and then spend the money to get her here ( ~1200 from EE) -- then she gets here, gets homesick and wants to go back. ( Mine told me her mother was sick. Sure. She lasted a week. ) that trip back-- another ~1200 . And you WANT to spend that money because if she stays in the US you are liable to support her.

The situation you describe is so typical that I'd be surprised to hear a case when it went differently while the circumstances were the same.

Have you both discussed what she will do once she gets in US? Did she learn English and how to drive while living in Ukraine? Did you have any plan to transition her to US lifestyle, or you just hoped things would work on their own? Was there a significant difference between her lifestyle there and here, did she know she'd have to change it and how? Living in European city, even in Ukraine, is more like living in SF/NYC than living in Shitville with the population of 2,000. Did you at least get some Ukrainian/Russian TV, or all she had was Fox News and baseball?

Quote:

4) Women age a lot faster there-- the stress, pollution, crowding, poor nutrition and lack of recreational exercise ( except walking for practical purposes, it's not the same as a joyful outdoor bike ride.) I would say a 26 year old Russian looks like a 35-37 year old American ( A healthy American, not a lard machine)

This is not true. As everywhere, you can find a 20yo which looks 30, and a 50yo which looks 30. But if you do not speak local language, your options are severely limited.

Quote:

So- bringing her here can mean 2 years wasted- no nookie, 2 tickets there ( 2500)for you, 2 tickets for her ( 2500) to come and quit, and believe me you'll feel dumb.

Tough, I see - considering the fact that my roundtrip tickets to Ukraine never cost over $1300, even in Jun 2009 when the prices soared.

Quote:

GO THERE ( EE, whatever) and STAY there, NEVER bring her here until you trust her with your LIFE, after maybe 5 years of unselfish loyalty.

This is true, but only if one agrees to stay there permanently. Even if you stay there with her for five years, and only then move back to US, those problems will still appear unless being addressed.

My solution is simpler: marry the equal. If you are 50yo, do not marry 18yo. Or do not expect it to last long.

[oldnemesis]

(09-29-2010 01:00 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

Iknowexactly, how old are you may I ask? You have made some very good points. I'm curious to know how the guys on here feel in general about the need to go to a foreign country in the first place?

It is easy to explain why it is necessary. Imagine a rich Russian, who does not speak English, and is going to US with a desire to marry a local girl (lol). He plans to spend two weeks there. Where does he go? He goes to Vegas, or NYC/Brighton Beach because it is advertised everywhere and he knows little about anything else. He doesn't speak English so he would only visit those places which cater to Russians.

Now compare it with another rich Russian, who learned English and went to US for six month or so, traveling through the states and eventually settling somewhere around NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Denver or so. He meets a lot of locals and talks to them.

Considering everything else being equal, which one - in your opinion - has a better chance to meet a girl, who is not a pro catering to foreigners? Which one would have a better and fair selection of local girls?

Quote:

Is going to such lengths a silent admission that you have no game?

Bringing a foreign wife in US indeed would make at least some people think that you was not able to secure a good local girl. But being a strong and self-sufficient man, why on the Earth would you care what others think? It is about YOUR life, and your happiness - and if someone doesn't like it, screw them!

Quote:

I mean, one of the reason why I'm contemplating about going abroad is because of the relative ease of attracting women, from the posts I've seen on here. Well, that automatically suggests that I must not be having the same ease here at home!

No, it is not unless you're paying for it. Nothing wrong with that (despite what some holier-than-thous tell you), but this is not the main reason.

The main reason is that there are significantly more good-looking women in some foreign countries comparing to US. They are NOT easier than your typical US bar whore, but they are easier that a woman of similar quality would be in US, if you ever find such a person here. However if you cannot get laid in your home country, it will not be easier for you to get laid in a foreign country - again, unless you're paying for it. For example, if in US you have no problem fucking the girls rated 4-5 on a 10 scale, but have significant problems with 6+ and have never had an 8, in a foreign country you may find out that you can fuck the girls you'd rate at 8-9.

Quote:

I think that after a few 2 week vacations, you'll have some idea if this girl actually is into you or not. She'd have to be a pretty good actress for me not to pick up on subtle cues concerning her genuine attraction.

IMHO this is very naive statement. I'd say two years is a bare minimum to come to any reasonable conclusion whether a relationship between two of you has any future. Hey, in those two weeks you may not even have an opportunity to see how her behavior changes when she is about to have her period!

Quote:

If her eyes don't light up when she sees me, STRIKE! If she isn't trying to rip my clothes off regularly, STRIKE! If she isn't trying to spend e very waking moment, STRIKE! If she isn't bring me occassional gifts or attempting to cook or doing other demonstrations of affection in an attempt to prove her value to me, STRIKE!

Such approach will pretty much guarantee that you'll find a golddigger pro which behaves like you expect her to, not like a proper local girl would behave. This is why I said it is very important to learn local culture. In a lot of cultures it is considered rude behavior for a girl to "rip your clothes off" - it is acceptable thing for men, but not for women. Sure she'd get into it sooner or later if this is what you want, once you tell her you want it, and she'll trust you that you genuinely want it, you won't treat her as a whore after that, and her family and friends don't learn about it so she won't lose face - but do not expect it to happen in two weeks.

Quote:

That's why I would say picking a country closer to home is the way to go. Unless you have the time and resources to spend months on end in a foreign country, you'll need to break up your fireign stay in stages. 2 weeks here, 2 weeks there. That can get costly and time consuming. Traveling to mexico every 3 months and staying for a couple of weeks is a lot more feisible than traveling to Russia and doing the same thing! Just a thought.

Well, this only makes sense if you're into Mexican girls. But if you're not, then it doesn't matter how close it is as you are not likely to find anyone there.

[iknowexactly]

-- I like the varying posts- nemesis you are giving some good warnings to someone not used to reading deep, strategic thinkers like Russians.
I think we've seen about the same airfares, about 1250 roughly round trip to a secondary city like Lviv from Callyforny.
Except when she decides she wants to go home and you want to get her out of here before she goes dark somewhere, so you buy a ticket with only a few days notice, then it's more expensive. If she takes off and is still in the country illegally years later, you might have trouble getting another fiancee visa, or even (IDK) a spousal visa.

I stand corrected on the affadavit of support details, you sound more knowledgeable than me, however I do think
a woman who leaves you and starts with false accusations of DV with a goal of staying here could cause you a HUGE amount of stress even if/when she leaves without you getting arrested.

As Nemesis says, American guys should have some serious respect for Russian culture before you dream you'll go there and play detective.
Who, century after century, kicked the asses of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler; while before each victory appearing primitive and unsophisticated?

No one should think about marrying a Russian woman unless you know the history of the Battle of Stalingrad.
It was a death match. Hitler would not relent, and Stalin would not consider losing. the Germans got within YARDS of the river
behind the Russian forces, but Russians are-- I don't know- a force of nature. And when one of those women decides she loves you,
you get the good side of that. ( Look up the Decembrists, as well my account below of a Russian woman's declaration of love.)

At one point the average life-expectancy of new Russian soldiers arriving was one day.
Eventually, after- I forget- something like two years? the Germans were hopelessly surrounded, out of fuel, and
finally surrendered formally which was simply an acknowledgement the Russians had already slowly, inexorably, and with limitless opaque
Slavic tenacity kicked their asses.

The denouement? 90% of the German prisoners of war, I think in the tens of thousands, never made it home.

I love Russians, I think they have great passion and warmth, and they are not automatons like many Americans.
But don't consider yourself their equal in battle. Don't get in a battle with them at all.

Remember, America is a child country, and we are of that child country. Russia BECAME Russia by kicking the Mongols' asses over a period of centuries, until they finally found it unpalatable to keep invading the area now known as Russia.

They are the world's best at chess-- think about that. You, naive American boy, are going to read ancient deviousness of calculating Russian girl with a huge amount at stake? POSSIBLE, but odds are not good.

I heard one Russian guy who didn't trust Russian women say once-- "Russian women say one thing, think another, and do a third."

That's why I believe this: her underneath me orgasming. It's not a signal, it's the thing itself.

=====

I'm oooolllld , over 45, still look halfway decent, 5'9", ( not bald, not fat, not leather skinned, high IQ, doctorate, scholarships and special classes for the gifted since 2nd grade, jobs have included professional musician, doctoral level health care, professional screenwriter, but I'm not upper middle class, never saved money, will have govt. pension in a couple years, enough to live simply without working in EE/Asia; no real $$ assets like businesses, real estate etc. )

Reliably having sex with [a] very attractive, fertile woman/women is a high priority in my life; and I want marriage-- not just legally, but bonded spiritually so you feel complete. For me- for me- Everything else is "hide and seek." I'm a sappy romantic and I want me and my other half to know each other deeply.

I do not have the temperament nor am I good at a series of seductions leaving a trail of ...ahem..."better than I found them" women... gee, she's crying, is that better? Oops, I shouldn't judge-- there are plenty of party girls and young girls who want adventure to go around.

I do NOT do well with American women-- poor game for this culture. In three trips to EE, each time within one week of arriving was having sex with women at least 20 years younger than me, all upper middle class background, either in medical school, engineers, or elite level liberal arts. One young woman's family was ALL medical doctors, busting ass helping people like a family of saints in rural Russia for no f'ing money. They were way above me in overall class, industry and fundamental quality of character. All willing to marry me -- the 18 year old I mentioned was ready to go but later changed her mind, the other two I believe were ready to go for real. And Slavic chicks have some beautiful romanticism if you like it. I've sure never heard an American women appeal to me, offering as proof of her love- " I'll give you many children!" That's some serious, sacred and deep, earthy love.

I can get single mom divorcees here in US no problem, they cue all the time, or often think I'm out of their league-- but I am not really interested. I feel that I am biologically hard wired to desire maximum fertility in women-- at least while I don't have kids. Who knows later.
To me, all most desirable women are generally 27 or under.
from evopsych it seems obvious-- a 33 or 37 year old probably can only have 1-3 kids. An 18 year old could have theoretically ten or more.
Someone could be a really pretty, saintly 45 year old and I would only have the basest fantasies about her.

It's pretty much common sense to me which genes would survive:
first a gene saying "have at least one kid", then next, a gene saying have as many healthy kids as you can."
Logic, fairness, societal expectations have almost nothing to do with these deep levels of programming. I think I could constrict them, repress what I actually want to live a more placid life, this seems unbelievably lazy to me.

Everybody has their own tastes. I prefer EE women to Asian, but I know for a fact even guys in their late 60's with pensions ( and shi^^y educations) can get early 20's women in Philippines, that'll be my last resort.

--air prices-- looks like we've seen about the same prices; two trips each round trip about 1250 = 2 round trips = total cost $5000. Of course taxis hotels are additional but this is just high level comparison.

As far as the person considering a few two week trips, I'm not saying that couldn't work-- and you're looking for autonomic ractions that are hard to control which is good-- pupil dilation-- real smile versus manufactured-- it HAS worked for [a lot of] people-- if, as another poster mentioned, you don't aim too much higher than your own level of attractiveness, and sometimes even if you do.

There are definitely 50 YO guys who are not millionaires who have smoking 30 year old Russian chicks here, and the chicks are capable of solid pair bonds, and just don't have the character to go out and ditch the guy that got them a totally better new life-- for a pair of better pecs!!

So in total-- for me, without decades of good looks left, the best way to spend my last good-looking decade is IN EE/ASIA getting it in real time-- not planning, waiting, and hoping.

If you're 35 and have a career you like, and game, you could operate differently.

The one part I cannot see making into an acceptable risk ( the type I don't like) is having kids with someone you don't REALLY, REALLY, REALLY KNOW in a country (USA) with child support laws like the ones here. I don't mind dying in an old Soviet Antonov in Siberia-- that's quick-- but 18 years...I think I'd rather get bumped off by the Mob somewhere than pay my ex to f*ck someone else for 18 years.


I seem incapable of explaining myself without sounding like I'm ranting. Probably a sign of bad game.

[iknowexactly]

-- to answer questions--

Is wifing a good idea at all? For the sentimental and weak among us- I think it CAN be.
I remember a quote, dunno who; " Marriage has many pains, but bachelorhood has no pleasures. "

First, I want adventure, and I want what I want. Prefer disaster to compromise. My path is not for most people, in fact if you've got any sense you'll avoid it for sure. It's certainly arguable I am not too smart. To each his own.

I'm oooolllld , over 45, still look halfway decent, 5'9", ( not bald, not fat, not leather skinned, high IQ, doctorate, scholarships and special classes for the gifted since 2nd grade, jobs have included professional musician, doctoral level health care, professional screenwriter, but I'm not upper middle class, never saved money, will have govt. pension in a couple years, enough to live simply without working in EE/Asia; no real $$ assets like businesses, real estate etc. )

Reliably having sex with [a] very attractive, fertile woman/women is a high priority in my life; and I want marriage-- not just legally, but bonded spiritually so you feel complete. For me- for me- Everything else is "hide and seek." I'm a sappy romantic and I want me and my other half to know each other deeply.

I do not have the temperament nor am I good at a series of seductions leaving a trail of ...ahem..."better than I found them" women... gee, she's crying, is that better? Oops, I shouldn't judge-- there are plenty of party girls and young girls who want adventure to go around.

I do NOT do well with American women-- poor game for this culture. In three trips to EE, each time within one week of arriving was having sex with women at least 20 years younger than me, all upper middle class background, either in medical school, engineers, or elite level liberal arts. One young woman's family was ALL medical doctors, busting ass helping people like a family of saints in rural Russia for no f'ing money. They were way above me in overall class, industry and fundamental quality of character. All willing to marry me -- the 18 year old I mentioned was ready to go but later changed her mind, the other two I believe were ready to go for real. And Slavic chicks have some beautiful romanticism if you like it. I've sure never heard an American women appeal to me, offering as proof of her love- " I'll give you many children!" That's some serious, sacred and deep, earthy love.

I can get single mom divorcees here in US no problem, they cue all the time, or often think I'm out of their league-- but I am not really interested. I feel that I am biologically hard wired to desire maximum fertility in women-- at least while I don't have kids. Who knows later.
To me, all most desirable women are generally 27 or under.
from evopsych it seems obvious-- a 33 or 37 year old probably can only have 1-3 kids. An 18 year old could have theoretically ten or more.
Someone could be a really pretty, saintly 45 year old and I would only have the basest fantasies about her.

It's pretty much common sense to me which genes would survive:
first a gene saying "have at least one kid", then next, a gene saying have as many healthy kids as you can."
Logic, fairness, societal expectations have almost nothing to do with these deep levels of programming. I think I could constrict them, repress what I actually want to live a more placid life, this seems unbelievably lazy to me.

Everybody has their own tastes. I prefer EE women to Asian, but I know for a fact even guys in their late 60's with pensions ( and shi^^y educations) can get early 20's women in Philippines, that'll be my last resort.

--air prices-- looks like we've seen about the same prices; two trips each round trip about 1250 = 2 round trips = total cost $5000. Of course taxis hotels are additional but this is just high level comparison.

As far as the person considering a few two week trips, I'm not saying that couldn't work-- and you're looking for autonomic ractions that are hard to control which is good-- pupil dilation-- real smile versus manufactured-- it HAS worked for [a lot of] people-- if, as another poster mentioned, you don't aim too much higher than your own level of attractiveness, and sometimes even if you do.

There are definitely 50 YO guys who are not millionaires who have smoking 30 year old Russian chicks here, and the chicks are capable of solid pair bonds, and just don't have the character to go out and ditch the guy that got them a totally better new life-- for a pair of better pecs!!

So in total-- for me, without decades of good looks left, the best way to spend my last good-looking decade is IN EE/ASIA getting it in real time-- not planning, waiting, and hoping.

If you're 35 and have a career you like, and game, you could operate differently.

The one part I cannot see making into an acceptable risk ( the type I don't like) is having kids with someone you don't REALLY, REALLY, REALLY KNOW in a country (USA) with child support laws like the ones here. I don't mind dying in an old Soviet Antonov in Siberia-- that's quick-- but 18 years...I think I'd rather get bumped off by the Mob somewhere than pay my ex to f*ck someone else for 18 years.


I seem incapable of explaining myself without sounding like I'm ranting. Probably a sign of bad game.

[Urban Renaissance Man]

(09-29-2010 08:28 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(09-29-2010 01:00 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

Iknowexactly, how old are you may I ask? You have made some very good points. I'm curious to know how the guys on here feel in general about the need to go to a foreign country in the first place?

It is easy to explain why it is necessary. Imagine a rich Russian, who does not speak English, and is going to US with a desire to marry a local girl (lol). He plans to spend two weeks there. Where does he go? He goes to Vegas, or NYC/Brighton Beach because it is advertised everywhere and he knows little about anything else. He doesn't speak English so he would only visit those places which cater to Russians.

Now compare it with another rich Russian, who learned English and went to US for six month or so, traveling through the states and eventually settling somewhere around NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Denver or so. He meets a lot of locals and talks to them.

Considering everything else being equal, which one - in your opinion - has a better chance to meet a girl, who is not a pro catering to foreigners? Which one would have a better and fair selection of local girls?

Quote:

Is going to such lengths a silent admission that you have no game?

Bringing a foreign wife in US indeed would make at least some people think that you was not able to secure a good local girl. But being a strong and self-sufficient man, why on the Earth would you care what others think? It is about YOUR life, and your happiness - and if someone doesn't like it, screw them!

Quote:

I mean, one of the reason why I'm contemplating about going abroad is because of the relative ease of attracting women, from the posts I've seen on here. Well, that automatically suggests that I must not be having the same ease here at home!

No, it is not unless you're paying for it. Nothing wrong with that (despite what some holier-than-thous tell you), but this is not the main reason.

The main reason is that there are significantly more good-looking women in some foreign countries comparing to US. They are NOT easier than your typical US bar whore, but they are easier that a woman of similar quality would be in US, if you ever find such a person here. However if you cannot get laid in your home country, it will not be easier for you to get laid in a foreign country - again, unless you're paying for it. For example, if in US you have no problem fucking the girls rated 4-5 on a 10 scale, but have significant problems with 6+ and have never had an 8, in a foreign country you may find out that you can fuck the girls you'd rate at 8-9.

Quote:

I think that after a few 2 week vacations, you'll have some idea if this girl actually is into you or not. She'd have to be a pretty good actress for me not to pick up on subtle cues concerning her genuine attraction.

IMHO this is very naive statement. I'd say two years is a bare minimum to come to any reasonable conclusion whether a relationship between two of you has any future. Hey, in those two weeks you may not even have an opportunity to see how her behavior changes when she is about to have her period!

Quote:

If her eyes don't light up when she sees me, STRIKE! If she isn't trying to rip my clothes off regularly, STRIKE! If she isn't trying to spend e very waking moment, STRIKE! If she isn't bring me occassional gifts or attempting to cook or doing other demonstrations of affection in an attempt to prove her value to me, STRIKE!

Such approach will pretty much guarantee that you'll find a golddigger pro which behaves like you expect her to, not like a proper local girl would behave. This is why I said it is very important to learn local culture. In a lot of cultures it is considered rude behavior for a girl to "rip your clothes off" - it is acceptable thing for men, but not for women. Sure she'd get into it sooner or later if this is what you want, once you tell her you want it, and she'll trust you that you genuinely want it, you won't treat her as a whore after that, and her family and friends don't learn about it so she won't lose face - but do not expect it to happen in two weeks.

Quote:

That's why I would say picking a country closer to home is the way to go. Unless you have the time and resources to spend months on end in a foreign country, you'll need to break up your fireign stay in stages. 2 weeks here, 2 weeks there. That can get costly and time consuming. Traveling to mexico every 3 months and staying for a couple of weeks is a lot more feisible than traveling to Russia and doing the same thing! Just a thought.

Well, this only makes sense if you're into Mexican girls. But if you're not, then it doesn't matter how close it is as you are not likely to find anyone there.

Well, I wasn't disputing the fact that someone living in a foreign country would be better capable to find a quality girl as opposed to someone just visiting. I'm not sure why you even went there. I do happen to think that a guy with some level of discernment can tell over a short period of time if a girl likes him or not. Also, the part about wanting a girl to rip my clothes off, well that might be a bit over-exaggerated, but at the same time, this pretending that women in other countries are all goo dlittle girls is somewhat ridiculous. I mean, it depends on the country of course, but there are frisky girls in every culture, and they don't have to be PRO girls to exhibit frisky behavior.

As far as not being into Mexican girls, I that's true, not everyone is into the same thing, but Mexican women come in such varying shapes, shades, hair textures, hair colors, eye shapes, etc. that you'd be hard pressed to not find someone there that you'd consider attractive.

[clr]

I love what my buddy did, he went the Romania(has family there) met a gorgeous model, got her a finance visa to bring her to the US. The deal was, if after 5 years everything was great they marry. What a great damn idea, keeps her on her best behavior, they had a massive fight a few year in, and he told her the 5 years started all over again hahaha

[Urban Renaissance Man]

(09-29-2010 09:20 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

-- I like the varying posts- nemesis you are giving some good warnings to someone not used to reading deep, strategic thinkers like Russians.
I think we've seen about the same airfares, about 1250 roughly round trip to a secondary city like Lviv from Callyforny.
Except when she decides she wants to go home and you want to get her out of here before she goes dark somewhere, so you buy a ticket with only a few days notice, then it's more expensive. If she takes off and is still in the country illegally years later, you might have trouble getting another fiancee visa, or even (IDK) a spousal visa.

I stand corrected on the affadavit of support details, you sound more knowledgeable than me, however I do think
a woman who leaves you and starts with false accusations of DV with a goal of staying here could cause you a HUGE amount of stress even if/when she leaves without you getting arrested.

As Nemesis says, American guys should have some serious respect for Russian culture before you dream you'll go there and play detective.
Who, century after century, kicked the asses of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler; while before each victory appearing primitive and unsophisticated?

No one should think about marrying a Russian woman unless you know the history of the Battle of Stalingrad.
It was a death match. Hitler would not relent, and Stalin would not consider losing. the Germans got within YARDS of the river
behind the Russian forces, but Russians are-- I don't know- a force of nature. And when one of those women decides she loves you,
you get the good side of that. ( Look up the Decembrists, as well my account below of a Russian woman's declaration of love.)

At one point the average life-expectancy of new Russian soldiers arriving was one day.
Eventually, after- I forget- something like two years? the Germans were hopelessly surrounded, out of fuel, and
finally surrendered formally which was simply an acknowledgement the Russians had already slowly, inexorably, and with limitless opaque
Slavic tenacity kicked their asses.

The denouement? 90% of the German prisoners of war, I think in the tens of thousands, never made it home.

I love Russians, I think they have great passion and warmth, and they are not automatons like many Americans.
But don't consider yourself their equal in battle. Don't get in a battle with them at all.

Remember, America is a child country, and we are of that child country. Russia BECAME Russia by kicking the Mongols' asses over a period of centuries, until they finally found it unpalatable to keep invading the area now known as Russia.

They are the world's best at chess-- think about that. You, naive American boy, are going to read ancient deviousness of calculating Russian girl with a huge amount at stake? POSSIBLE, but odds are not good.

I heard one Russian guy who didn't trust Russian women say once-- "Russian women say one thing, think another, and do a third."

That's why I believe this: her underneath me orgasming. It's not a signal, it's the thing itself.

=====

I'm oooolllld , over 45, still look halfway decent, 5'9", ( not bald, not fat, not leather skinned, high IQ, doctorate, scholarships and special classes for the gifted since 2nd grade, jobs have included professional musician, doctoral level health care, professional screenwriter, but I'm not upper middle class, never saved money, will have govt. pension in a couple years, enough to live simply without working in EE/Asia; no real $$ assets like businesses, real estate etc. )

Reliably having sex with [a] very attractive, fertile woman/women is a high priority in my life; and I want marriage-- not just legally, but bonded spiritually so you feel complete. For me- for me- Everything else is "hide and seek." I'm a sappy romantic and I want me and my other half to know each other deeply.

I do not have the temperament nor am I good at a series of seductions leaving a trail of ...ahem..."better than I found them" women... gee, she's crying, is that better? Oops, I shouldn't judge-- there are plenty of party girls and young girls who want adventure to go around.

I do NOT do well with American women-- poor game for this culture. In three trips to EE, each time within one week of arriving was having sex with women at least 20 years younger than me, all upper middle class background, either in medical school, engineers, or elite level liberal arts. One young woman's family was ALL medical doctors, busting ass helping people like a family of saints in rural Russia for no f'ing money. They were way above me in overall class, industry and fundamental quality of character. All willing to marry me -- the 18 year old I mentioned was ready to go but later changed her mind, the other two I believe were ready to go for real. And Slavic chicks have some beautiful romanticism if you like it. I've sure never heard an American women appeal to me, offering as proof of her love- " I'll give you many children!" That's some serious, sacred and deep, earthy love.

I can get single mom divorcees here in US no problem, they cue all the time, or often think I'm out of their league-- but I am not really interested. I feel that I am biologically hard wired to desire maximum fertility in women-- at least while I don't have kids. Who knows later.
To me, all most desirable women are generally 27 or under.
from evopsych it seems obvious-- a 33 or 37 year old probably can only have 1-3 kids. An 18 year old could have theoretically ten or more.
Someone could be a really pretty, saintly 45 year old and I would only have the basest fantasies about her.

It's pretty much common sense to me which genes would survive:
first a gene saying "have at least one kid", then next, a gene saying have as many healthy kids as you can."
Logic, fairness, societal expectations have almost nothing to do with these deep levels of programming. I think I could constrict them, repress what I actually want to live a more placid life, this seems unbelievably lazy to me.

Everybody has their own tastes. I prefer EE women to Asian, but I know for a fact even guys in their late 60's with pensions ( and shi^^y educations) can get early 20's women in Philippines, that'll be my last resort.

--air prices-- looks like we've seen about the same prices; two trips each round trip about 1250 = 2 round trips = total cost $5000. Of course taxis hotels are additional but this is just high level comparison.

As far as the person considering a few two week trips, I'm not saying that couldn't work-- and you're looking for autonomic ractions that are hard to control which is good-- pupil dilation-- real smile versus manufactured-- it HAS worked for [a lot of] people-- if, as another poster mentioned, you don't aim too much higher than your own level of attractiveness, and sometimes even if you do.

There are definitely 50 YO guys who are not millionaires who have smoking 30 year old Russian chicks here, and the chicks are capable of solid pair bonds, and just don't have the character to go out and ditch the guy that got them a totally better new life-- for a pair of better pecs!!

So in total-- for me, without decades of good looks left, the best way to spend my last good-looking decade is IN EE/ASIA getting it in real time-- not planning, waiting, and hoping.

If you're 35 and have a career you like, and game, you could operate differently.

The one part I cannot see making into an acceptable risk ( the type I don't like) is having kids with someone you don't REALLY, REALLY, REALLY KNOW in a country (USA) with child support laws like the ones here. I don't mind dying in an old Soviet Antonov in Siberia-- that's quick-- but 18 years...I think I'd rather get bumped off by the Mob somewhere than pay my ex to f*ck someone else for 18 years.


I seem incapable of explaining myself without sounding like I'm ranting. Probably a sign of bad game.

Your message contained a lot of things that I'm not sure the meaning of, but one point stood out that a must disagree with; and it's not even the point that necessarily pertains to attracting women...I do not at all feel that Russians are some kind of super warrior or vastly straong race of people. You bring up ancient battles and wars in which they were victorious. Yet, you can name victories had by nearly ever clivlization and declare them super human. The war I do remember is 'The Cold War', in which the United States soundly defeated the USSR, theu deteremination, industrial might and the pride of not accepting anything other than a win! I'll place my American tenacity and refusal to be disrespected again the cunning of any race of woman on Earth!

[MiXX]

(09-30-2010 02:49 PM)clr Wrote:  

I love what my buddy did, he went the Romania(has family there) met a gorgeous model, got her a finance visa to bring her to the US. The deal was, if after 5 years everything was great they marry. What a great damn idea, keeps her on her best behavior, they had a massive fight a few year in, and he told her the 5 years started all over again hahaha

I was under the impression that if you are bringing a foreign wife on a k1 fiance visa to the US, you have 90 days to marry her from the date/time she enters the US, otherwise she is legally obligated to return home. So, are you sure it was a k1 visa your boy did this 5 year deal with? It sounds like a good deal, if you can pull it off.

Mixx

[metalhaze]

marry her and go live in a country/state that gives you laws to your advantage. ex: marry a russian but go and live and work in Dubai.

[oldnemesis]

(09-29-2010 09:20 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

I think we've seen about the same airfares, about 1250 roughly round trip to a secondary city like Lviv from Callyforny.

A rule of thumb: when flying to EE, always consider to fly to capital of that country. The flights are significantly cheaper, and most cities are one night away by train at most. Lviv is 9 hours away from Kiev by an overnight train, and there is a train going there like once an hour or so. So if you are arriving later, just hop to the train station and jump into train for $15 or so. Get a "coupe" type arrangement, it is quite comfortable to sleep.

Even in Russia when you want to get to Novosibirsk (takes a few days on a train) it is usually cheaper to fly to Moscow and then use some local carrier booked separately. Not only it will be cheaper, but the flight selection will also be significantly better.

Quote:

As Nemesis says, American guys should have some serious respect for Russian culture before you dream you'll go there and play detective.
...
And when one of those women decides she loves you, you get the good side of that. ( Look up the Decembrists, as well my account below of a Russian woman's declaration of love.)

Indeed. Russians are very selective with who they'd like to spend time with. A Western mentality is to make friends with anyone, and that it is better to spend time in a bar talking to someone who isn't smart at all than to stay there alone the whole evening. For us it is completely opposite. As Omah Khayam summarized:

Of wisdom's dictates two are principal,
Surpassing all your lore traditional;
Better to fast than eat of every meat,
Better to live alone than mate with all!

(the part lost in translation is "mate with all" - the original says "mate with just someone")

Quote:

Reliably having sex with [a] very attractive, fertile woman/women is a high priority in my life; and I want marriage-- not just legally, but bonded spiritually so you feel complete. For me- for me- Everything else is "hide and seek." I'm a sappy romantic and I want me and my other half to know each other deeply.

You may consider rural Russia or Ukraine. Maybe Thailand. Do not go to Moscow or Kiev, they'll eat you there.

[oldnemesis]

(09-30-2010 02:49 PM)clr Wrote:  

I love what my buddy did, he went the Romania(has family there) met a gorgeous model, got her a finance visa to bring her to the US. The deal was, if after 5 years everything was great they marry.

Fiancee visa is only issued for 90 days, so I really doubt he told you the truth.

The K-1 visa permits the foreign-citizen fiancé(e) to travel to the United States and marry his or her U.S. citizen sponsor within 90 days of arrival

[exe]

(09-28-2010 06:05 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

We all believe that there are various countries that lend to good sexual experiences, etc., but what about an actual real relationship or wife?

For me, a relationship or 'life partnership', yes. A wife in legal marriage, no. I actually would like to have MLTRs with 4,6 or maybe more foreign women. That number would depend on how much resources, including time, to spend on them. The deal would be that they get a portion of my time & resources per year. If they get out of line, they're off the gravy train. Part of the deal is that they all know that they're not the only one. Contrary to what other guys think, I think this will actually keep them in line. It's all about power & control in any relationship. A good portion of both can be lost thru the legal system, not standing up for yourself/having self-respect, or not insisting that things are done your way (having a strong lifestyle design frame). Since I will be continuously doing my mobile/travel lifestyle, I will constantly be coming across new 'candidates' to the rotation. This will also help keep the other women in line. I won't be easy to find keepers, but 4 or 6 out of hundreds is quite doable. Bottom line for me is to define the relationships to my advantage and not get bound to anything legal with any one of these women. Only time will tell if I'm being realistic with this goal.

Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:

Can you ever really trust that a foreign woman actually loves you...?

If there's one thing to take away from this board - it is to never trust women, period. There are a couple of good threads on this, including the one on misogyny.

Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:

I’m also wondering what the true divorce statistics are for foreign arranged marriages vs. marriages domestically?

I've seen them both ways. I don't know the hard numbers, but think the ones with Russian & EE women have higher divorce probabilities than with Asian women.

Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:

Lastly, does anyone feel like the need to go abroad just to find women an unspoken admission of lack of game?

If you've truly taken the time to read the posts on this board, you'll see that a good portion of the guys openly admit their game wasn't at all tight when they started this lifestyle. Some guys just don't have the look or profile that does well in their home country or city. You would also know that the board's top posters: Roosh, GManifesto, Mixx, etc. have pretty good game here in the US but chose to travel to meet foreign girls.

Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:

should a guy be congratulated that he was able to find certain paradises where the women come more correct?

Hell yeah. Although one can find them here in the US, it'll be tougher than in other countries where there's less or no feminist movement. There's a thread on foreign girls vs american girls - read it. Having just spent the better part of a year traveling, I now see the forest that is the castration of the US male. From a young age, we get exposed to demasculinized role models and bombarded with feminism BS in the media. This is probably why we perceive most EE males to be 'alpha'. Flying back from Europe, I watched 'Sex & The City 2" on the plane and could clearly see this in how all the US men in the movie acted like total wimps. The middle eastern men in the movie were more masculine and didn't tolerate the women's bs and drama. Although I see it clearly now, it'll probably take me years to rid myself of these 'US culture' norms.

[exe]

(09-29-2010 09:20 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

As Nemesis says, American guys should have some serious respect for Russian culture before you dream you'll go there and play detective.
Who, century after century, kicked the asses of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler; while before each victory appearing primitive and unsophisticated?

No one should think about marrying a Russian woman unless you know the history of the Battle of Stalingrad.
It was a death match. Hitler would not relent, and Stalin would not consider losing. the Germans got within YARDS of the river
behind the Russian forces, but Russians are-- I don't know- a force of nature. And when one of those women decides she loves you,
you get the good side of that. ( Look up the Decembrists, as well my account below of a Russian woman's declaration of love.)

At one point the average life-expectancy of new Russian soldiers arriving was one day.
Eventually, after- I forget- something like two years? the Germans were hopelessly surrounded, out of fuel, and
finally surrendered formally which was simply an acknowledgement the Russians had already slowly, inexorably, and with limitless opaque
Slavic tenacity kicked their asses.

The Nazis lost the Battle of Stalingrad and ultimately Operation Barbarossa was a failure because:

1. Hitler micromanaged and second guessed his generals and field commanders
2. Hitler sent half of Army Group South (the portion of the Wehrmacht that was assigned to take Stalingrad) to the Caucasus to secure the oil fields there.
3. The Wehrmacht was good at doing 'blitzkreig', not at urban warfare.
4. The Wehrmacht soldiers were not properly dressed/equipped for the freezing Russian winter - the same Russian winter that did in Napoleon. The Russians are not a 'force of nature' - rather, the Russian winter is a force of nature.

and not because of the Russian's 'limitless opaque Slavic tenacity'.

[clr]

(09-30-2010 02:59 PM)MiXXmaster27 Wrote:  

(09-30-2010 02:49 PM)clr Wrote:  

I love what my buddy did, he went the Romania(has family there) met a gorgeous model, got her a finance visa to bring her to the US. The deal was, if after 5 years everything was great they marry. What a great damn idea, keeps her on her best behavior, they had a massive fight a few year in, and he told her the 5 years started all over again hahaha

I was under the impression that if you are bringing a foreign wife on a k1 fiance visa to the US, you have 90 days to marry her from the date/time she enters the US, otherwise she is legally obligated to return home. So, are you sure it was a k1 visa your boy did this 5 year deal with? It sounds like a good deal, if you can pull it off.

Mixx

To answer you guys, he didnt lie, I met her 5 years ago, and I live in his resort in costa rica when I am there they ended up splitting up after about 8 years together, he never married her. Good because we just saw her again the other day and she is gaining some weight LMAO Plus he is a millionaire real estate guy and didnt want to give her half his shit if he ever got divorced.

Sooooo, sure maybe she was illegal, but she had a DL, and how often does immigration check a tall sexy blond model in San fran??!??? He took her to costa rica with him and they lived together for a few years.

[oldnemesis]

(09-30-2010 09:15 PM)clr Wrote:  

Sooooo, sure maybe she was illegal, but she had a DL, and how often does immigration check a tall sexy blond model in San fran??!??? He took her to costa rica with him and they lived together for a few years.

If she was on K1, then how did she travel? It is not like you can go back and forth on K1.
Also while it is possible to get a DL while being on non-immigrant visa, it is only issued for the term of visa, meaning she'd only get a DL which would expire in 90 days. Either it was not a fiancee visa, or your friend does not tell you all the details.

Now for the girl to agree to this kind of deal - living in country illegally, being unable to visit your family, risking getting caught up and after 180 day overstay she cannot enter USA for 5 (or 10?) years, not being able to work, and all for the hope the guy may be married her after five years?

[oldnemesis]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I am studying the WWII history for quite a long time (for fun), and unfortunately your understanding of the situation is far from being complete.

(09-30-2010 08:11 PM)exe Wrote:  

The Nazis lost the Battle of Stalingrad and ultimately Operation Barbarossa was a failure because:
1. Hitler micromanaged and second guessed his generals and field commanders

This is a common complain German generals use in their memoir. Most of them are basically bluffing about how'd they win a war if Hitler didn't mess up with them. However none of them explains why the same micromanagement was not a problem when Nazis invaded Poland, France, Norvay, Denmark, Netherlands, Greece and so on. It wasn't a problem even in 1941 up to the Battle of Moscow.

Quote:

2. Hitler sent half of Army Group South (the portion of the Wehrmacht that was assigned to take Stalingrad) to the Caucasus to secure the oil fields there.

And this required Stalin to send half of his army to the Caucasus to protect those oil fields. If Hitler didn't and brought everyone to Stalingrad, so would do Stalin.

Quote:

3. The Wehrmacht was good at doing 'blitzkreig', not at urban warfare.

Stalingrad wasn't really "urban warfare" either. Don't learn the history from Hollywood movies.

Quote:

4. The Wehrmacht soldiers were not properly dressed/equipped for the freezing Russian winter - the same Russian winter that did in Napoleon. The Russians are not a 'force of nature' - rather, the Russian winter is a force of nature.

This is true, but this is either lack of planning or hope to finish everything before winter. My understanding that this is the latter. No doubt Hitler knew that there is winter in Russia, and sometime it gets cold. After all, they didn't come all from California - there is winter in Germany as well. Indeed if you look on Franz Halder's diaries, the overall expectation was to capture Moscow before fall 1941, which explains the situation.

[clr]

(09-30-2010 11:54 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(09-30-2010 09:15 PM)clr Wrote:  

Sooooo, sure maybe she was illegal, but she had a DL, and how often does immigration check a tall sexy blond model in San fran??!??? He took her to costa rica with him and they lived together for a few years.

If she was on K1, then how did she travel? It is not like you can go back and forth on K1.
Also while it is possible to get a DL while being on non-immigrant visa, it is only issued for the term of visa, meaning she'd only get a DL which would expire in 90 days. Either it was not a fiancee visa, or your friend does not tell you all the details.

Now for the girl to agree to this kind of deal - living in country illegally, being unable to visit your family, risking getting caught up and after 180 day overstay she cannot enter USA for 5 (or 10?) years, not being able to work, and all for the hope the guy may be married her after five years?

She worked with him, since he was a real estate and owned lots of rental properties... as far as I know she didnt go back to romania and when they left to costa rica (since he was born there but raised in the US) it was a permanent move, plus he is notoriously cheap jejeje millionaire splitting meals with his girl friend all the time lol so I doubt there were crazy vacations, I know he bought a conversion van at an auction and traveled the us with her in that.

[exe]

(10-01-2010 12:06 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I am studying the WWII history for quite a long time (for fun), and unfortunately your understanding of the situation is far from being complete.

Neither is yours.

(10-01-2010 12:06 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

This is a common complain German generals use in their memoir. Most of them are basically bluffing about how'd they win a war if Hitler didn't mess up with them. However none of them explains why the same micromanagement was not a problem when Nazis invaded Poland, France, Norvay, Denmark, Netherlands, Greece and so on. It wasn't a problem even in 1941 up to the Battle of Moscow.

Are you really serious? I'm not an expert on WWII but I know that most of these countries fell fairly easily, some because Hitler negotiated with the political leaders - there was no need for serious battles like Stalingrad where things dragged on and complex military strategy and tactics were needed to win. In Operation Yellow and Operation Red - the invasion of France and the low countries - blitzkrieg succeeded partly because the tank commanders DIDN'T listen to Hitler's orders to stop. One example was the drive all the way to Dunkirk - the 'crescent' that flanked the French & British forces. In Operation Barbarossa, the generals and field commanders wanted to take Moscow first - taking the capital was of top military strategic priority. But Hitler stubbornly focused on Stalingrad because of its name.

(10-01-2010 12:06 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Stalingrad wasn't really "urban warfare" either. Don't learn the history from Hollywood movies.

Don't tell me that Stalingrad wasn't urban warfare. It came down to a building to building, room to room effort to push the Russians to the river. In the north part of the city, the Germans got all the way to the river but there were a couple of pockets of Russian resistance, an area of several blocks in the center and another one in the south, that was pretty much the Russian toehold until the tide turned.

And who said anything about Hollywood movies?

[oldnemesis]

(10-01-2010 08:15 AM)exe Wrote:  

Are you really serious? I'm not an expert on WWII but I know that most of these countries fell fairly easily, some because Hitler negotiated with the political leaders - there was no need for serious battles like Stalingrad where things dragged on and complex military strategy and tactics were needed to win. In Operation Yellow and Operation Red - the invasion of France and the low countries - blitzkrieg succeeded partly because the tank commanders DIDN'T listen to Hitler's orders to stop. One example was the drive all the way to Dunkirk - the 'crescent' that flanked the French & British forces. In Operation Barbarossa, the generals and field commanders wanted to take Moscow first - taking the capital was of top military strategic priority. But Hitler stubbornly focused on Stalingrad because of its name.

Wow, this is quite a mess.
For the countries I listed the negotiations either happened but failed (Poland), only happened after the fall of the country was obvious and succeed (Belgium, Netherlands), happened after the fall of the country was obvious but did not succeed (Norway) or didn't happen at all (France). Belgium, for example, did not surrender immediately just in case, only when its main defense system was captured and destroyed and it was obvious the allies won't be able to help it. You obviously know about Eben Emael, don't you?

Tank commanders DID listen to Hitler's orders to stop when such orders were issued - they stopped before Dunkirk, and the "miracle of Dunkirk" happened. As I say, their memories (especially Guderian) are quite unreliable, and tend to blame Hitler of everything including their own screw-ups. If you use them, always cross-verify them against, for example, Halder's diary, which is significantly less biased.

"Focus on Moscow" happened (and changed) in mid 1941, and Stalingrad happened in late 1942. Also you probably remember Napoleon captured Moscow, did it help him?

Quote:

Don't tell me that Stalingrad wasn't urban warfare. It came down to a building to building, room to room effort to push the Russians to the river.

I will tell you exactly that. The Battle of Stalingrad took over 6 months, with total loss (from both sides) exceeded 2 MILLION people. It involved several major operations, most of which happened outside Stalingrad. To call this operation "urban warfare" is a major underestimation - pretty much like limiting the US-Japan war to Pearl Harbor.

[iknowexactly]

Quote:

Your message contained a lot of things that I'm not sure the meaning of, but one point stood out that a must disagree with; and it's not even the point that necessarily pertains to attracting women...I do not at all feel that Russians are some kind of super warrior or vastly straong race of people. You bring up ancient battles and wars in which they were victorious. Yet, you can name victories had by nearly ever clivlization and declare them super human. The war I do remember is 'The Cold War', in which the United States soundly defeated the USSR, theu deteremination, industrial might and the pride of not accepting anything other than a win! I'll place my American tenacity and refusal to be disrespected again the cunning of any race of woman on Earth!

Don't worry, if you don't understand my ranting it simply means you're not nuts yet.

We're not fundamentally in disagreement, the main thing I see as a mismatch is that a twenty-something man charged with hormones can see through a calculating, hot young Russian Girl on her own turf, where she has a lot at stake in keeping him thinking she's interested. Plus she can put out and like it and if that doesn't distort your perspective nothing will.

That's a one-on-one battle that I think she will have the advantage in.

You are right in that lassaiz-faire capitalism beat Bolshevism (Not a highly evolved form of Communism) at the macro level.

And the USA, which I consider sort of the collective child of Great Britain and the rest of the world, has invented a ton of genius stuff-- Internet, nuclear power, integrated circuit, practical mass production and one of the most underrated achievements, separation of church and state. The idea that every religion is just fine, and none specially privileged, is the ultimate defuser or all the moronic religious wars people have been fighting since they probably argued which cave the Bear God lived in.

As a naturalistic scientist (one who does not seek or accept supernatural explanations) I might prefer the Communist approach of banning religion as basically a form of false advertising. But I believe that for a significant part of the population religion makes them happier, and that's more important than scientific correctness. But banning religion worked fairly well when enforced for 70 years, for example the Czech republic is reportedly now 70% atheistic or more.

Anyway, back to to judging the relative strength of cultures.

One of the big advantages of capitalism is to a certain point it encourages people to trust each other. You can't do as many business deals, start as many projects, collaborate as efficiently; if you're assuming all the time people won't do what they say they will. And you HAVE to be efficient to grab the golden ring of winning the profits of other's behavior. Although my father told me about crooked building inspectors, in my whole life I've never even sensed that an official or bureaucrat was angling for a bribe from me. That's a pretty significant accomplishment for a culture.

So, granted, America has been brilliant at creativity. However, this is not quite the same as enduring real physical suffering. There's never been a major famine or invasion of the US. Speculation about what would happen probably isn't productive here.

However, while many relatively un-cosmopolitan Americans think that "socialism" was discredited (except for the social security checks going to their parents/grandparents) by the breakup of the Soviet Union, I see it somewhat differently.

To me, the fact that Russians could even CONCEIVE of a truly socialistic society is really admirable. The Soviet Union didn't start out with only thuggish Bolsheviks murdering their political opponents, there were real idealists who were bullied out of the process by the most aggressive opportunists, people much like Karl Rove and Bush. Imagine Russians could actually BELIEVE that people could simply share and have a quasi-utopia! It may be unrealistic, but this is a people that have some beautiful spiritual aspects (My definition of spiritual being based on how much you'd like to help others and how close you want to be to others, not supernaturalism).

And what happened to wealth distribution in the supposedly superior capitol of the capitalists, the USA? Forgive my primitive graphs.

INCREASE IN AFTER TAX INCOME USA 1979-2005
Source: Congressional Budget Office 2007
==========================

Bottom fifth (quintile): <10% x
Middle Quintile: About 20% xx
Second Quintile: About 25% xx
Top Quintile: About 70% xx-xxxx
Top One Percent: About 175% xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-x
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(Remember, in the last 3 years the ruling class have
extended and consolidated their gains even more)

So you're right, capitalists win, even against the other people in their
own country!!
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If you're in that top 1%, you're exactly the kind of guy who probably
isn't reading this, because you're watching Yale girls who want it with
poodles (purebred AKC only) or whatever other sexual fantasies you want.

So, you could say, yes, Capitalism/America beat the Soviet Union, but their ruling class won the great majority of the spoils. Then that top 1% borrowed money from Japan and China (T-Bills), looted the borrowed money in the form of military contractor profits to themselves, and oil money paid to themselves, and then, as a final favor, shipped a lot of the jobs of the other 99% overseas.

When the ruling class of a country does that, can you really even consider them members of that country any more in any real sense?
Aren't they really just economic pillagers?

Maybe the bulk of Americans aren't the "winners" so much as we are Suckers-- still believing the Party line that everything's just grand, as long as we keep vigilant against Socialism interrupting the flow of that river of money up to the top 1%.

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Warren Buffett on Class Warfare (2007, NY Times Interview)
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning....how can that be fair?”
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