[nmmoooreland20]

Been brainstorming feasible location independent income streams lately, and one sector I keep coming back to is copyediting/proofreading.

There’s a lot of info out there about copywriting, and while I’ve always been a good writer for school papers and such, banging out copy with a marketing slant is a whole different ball game. Plus, writing is a process I simply do not enjoy at all. Translation is another similar sector thrown around often, but obviously fluency in a second language is requisite.

Editing, on the other hand, is a natural skill, and I enjoy it much more than writing.

Does anyone here have experience copyediting, or know anyone that has pulled off a location independent lifestyle this way?

My concerns is scalability-- there’s a finite limit to the amount of time you can devote to editing, as well as the capability to expand margins. Is it like writing where the better you get and more experience you garner, the more you can charge? What are the best location independent copyeditors getting paid? Without much research, I’d guess writers have a higher earning potential, as it’s probably a harder skill to master.

Based on the rates Neil posted for professional copywriting in his book thread, coupled with some of the English copy I’ve come across in my travels abroad, it seems like there is business for the taking in terms of undercutting the pros and/or supply from foreigners. Just trying to figure out if the economics really could work out.

[painter]

There's a good thread on this somewhere in the Lifestyles section but I can't remember the title. I tried Elance but it seems they want you to write tons of stuff for peanuts. Apparently the way google has changed good copy is in demand now and you can charge like $50 an hour if you have a good reputation.

[maestrobaires]

definitely it is a good location independent job! i've met plenty of editors, writers and translators on the road

[HiFlo]

seems like you'd be by yourself a lot inside your own head and it will grow to be extremely tedious. not for me, but everyone has their own strengths.

[RichieP]

Some thoughts, from someone currently amping up their freelance writing chops:

-More experienced editors can command more, definitely. Apparently it's a real craft- there's different kinds, copy, line and proofreading (I think) - and they all pay differently

-From what I've heard, the better paying editing work is not from the odd company that needs a few signs or webpages rewriting (they dont know the value of good editors and couldnt afford them if they did), but from bigger companies and corporates that have regular editing needs and know the value of someone who can consistently make their written materials polished and excellent.

-There's definite opportunity to write english for companies abroad. Native english speakers are valuable. The book "Delaying the Real World" talks about using English as a marketable overseas skill, and not just for teaching.

Any foreign company that has any communications in english - B2C, B2B, etc - would benefit from a native speaker to edit and polish their stuff. Why couldnt that person be you?

-I wouldnt base your business on "undercutting the pros"... I understand the temptation, but anyone who's gonna pay serious money for editing wants quality and excellence (race to the top, not race to the bottom)

just my 2c.

[maestrobaires]

sales-related copywriting (scripts, sales letters, pre-sales pages) pays well too

[Alpharius]

I saw someone else post about this recently and was curious about finding more information. My job leaves me with a lot of free time and I was curious about getting into this to make some extra cash on the side.

Anyone have any resources to check out?

[Andy_B]

The cool thing about editing is that people seem to pay similar rates per page for editors as they do for writers, but you can bang out the work a lot faster. Still, I focus 100% on writing (except editing my own stuff when a client wants a re-write) because I find the editing process too tedious.

[maestrobaires]

indeed, not much creativity. but it pays well. it's like cold call sales. some people simply can't do it

[lilseezie]

This is interesting. I think it's hard to be solely a copywriter or a copyeditor - you almost always have to be a bit of both. If you're a copywriter you're going to be editing a lot of your own work, but also clients may give you existing pieces and ask, "Can you jazz this up a bit?" Guess what, you're now essentially a copyeditor as well. Similarly, if you're a copyeditor you're going to have to make some recommendations on how to improve the copy, which means you're basically copywriting now.

I say do both and charge similar rates whether you're starting from scratch or editing an existing piece of work. They're both challenging undertakings.

[RichieP]

(12-31-2012 11:51 PM)lilseezie Wrote:  

This is interesting. I think it's hard to be solely a copywriter or a copyeditor - you almost always have to be a bit of both. If you're a copywriter you're going to be editing a lot of your own work, but also clients may give you existing pieces and ask, "Can you jazz this up a bit?" Guess what, you're now essentially a copyeditor as well. Similarly, if you're a copyeditor you're going to have to make some recommendations on how to improve the copy, which means you're basically copywriting now.

I say do both and charge similar rates whether you're starting from scratch or editing an existing piece of work. They're both challenging undertakings.

There's overlap, but they're pretty distinct roles.

Also, just to clear this up, the 'copy' in 'Copyediting' just refers to whatever body of text you're editing, whereas as the 'copy' in 'Copywriting' usually refers to persuasive prose designed to get the reader to do something (e.g. buy something).

Copyediting wont necessarily be editing sales copy. It can be academic texts, newspaper articles, etc.

I think people were mixing them up a lil.

If OP is looking to be a copyeditor, he wouldn't necessarily need to learn copywriting unless that was the particular niche he wanted to edit in.

An aside; an interest definition of the role from Wiki:

"The "five Cs" summarize the copy editor's job, which is to make the copy "clear, correct, concise, comprehensible, and consistent." Copy editors should make it say what it means, and mean what it says."

[maestrobaires]

http://www.copyblogger.com

[RichieP]

^... again, that's copywriting. lol

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

Seeing as I do this, part time anyway, I thought I would throw my two cents in. It all depends on what interests you. For me, I do copy editing for academics, namely professors and PhD candidates. Personally, I do not really like it. As it is really tedious and boring (my clients are even in a more exciting topic, sports marketing).

There is a rate list somewhere online (usually in the 20-28 pound range). I charge 25 euro an hour. If it was by word count, it would be more, but it is hard to gauge because people have different levels of English. The hard thing is where to draw the line between just proofreading, editing, and content editing. As the latter is very time intensive and also requires you know some shit. The problem I had encountered was finding good clients. If you google search online, there is a ton of competition. And a lot of it is a race to the bottom, ie 10 bucks an hour or less. Whereas the high end stuff, is like a company with a staff of PhDs, who charge a lot more. There seems to be only so much you can really charge, which the problem I encountered with networking with PhD students, they just dont have the cash, while older professors might have an in house person or already have an editing guy.

http://aroundtheworldin80jobs.com/locati...-a-boomin/

However, this is just one area. I have met others who have a way different experience, and it is usually ones who are able to secure more long-term arrangements with companies. It all depends on your personality type. Me I like to be creative and have a certain newness to my day. Others, prefer just to take the money and run. I would just suggest hustling online to find what pays the most in your skill set and is most interesting. Or perhaps teach English in Japan or Korea for a year and try to snipe some clients that you can continue to work with online if possible. Whatever "location independent" job you may wish for, I would highly recommend to try to get some business clients who you know ahead of time so you aren't starting cold turkey and can charge a better rate. Best of luck.

[flyingnimbus]

I do some editing on the side, and it really is a matter of building connections. You've got to be willing to initially take on work for cheap on sites like elance and then get referrals and repeat work. If you are consistent, you WILL get overwhelmed with projects, and once you have that abundance, you can start charging more and more.

It's actually a lot like women - get a bunch of women in your rotation, then from that foundation of abundance date the ones you like the most.

[maestrobaires]

the rules of business are very similar to what we call the game

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

(01-04-2013 10:18 AM)flyingnimbus Wrote:  

I do some editing on the side, and it really is a matter of building connections. You've got to be willing to initially take on work for cheap on sites like elance and then get referrals and repeat work. If you are consistent, you WILL get overwhelmed with projects, and once you have that abundance, you can start charging more and more.

It's actually a lot like women - get a bunch of women in your rotation, then from that foundation of abundance date the ones you like the most.

Did you find there was a rate though where you had a drop off? And what was the rate and what area of copy-editing were you in?

[flyingnimbus]

(01-05-2013 08:40 PM)AroundtheWorldin80Jobs Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 10:18 AM)flyingnimbus Wrote:  

I do some editing on the side, and it really is a matter of building connections. You've got to be willing to initially take on work for cheap on sites like elance and then get referrals and repeat work. If you are consistent, you WILL get overwhelmed with projects, and once you have that abundance, you can start charging more and more.

It's actually a lot like women - get a bunch of women in your rotation, then from that foundation of abundance date the ones you like the most.

Did you find there was a rate though where you had a drop off? And what was the rate and what area of copy-editing were you in?

When I was just starting out I got the most projects when I bid for basically $15/hr. 4 years later I've been able to triple that rate, but only because I was willing to start at that low rate, work really hard and get repeat business/referrals.

[maestrobaires]

USD15/h is not that bad if you live somewhere cheap

[Beyond Borders]

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

[maestrobaires]

http://www.tropicalmba.com/be-your-own-b...-of-money/

writing could be very lucrative! so if you are not a STEM type, go for the languages! writing, translation, editing, ... they all pay well, are location independent and need for those skills is growing!

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

(01-07-2013 07:15 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

I think it really depends what kind you are doing and who are your clients. I mean if you are hooked up with a company and a contract that is one thing and your rates can go pretty high. But to get to that point you need to have a portfolio or have an in with that company which can take a long time. If you are looking at elance or a google search, you are looking at companies or people that are offering English editing services down to like 10 an hour. I am not saying that writers digest is off the mark ( I would say you can get that), I just would say it depends who you can get as a client. Furthermore, in terms of marketing yourself, I think the previous poster was right about just working your way up with clients and referrals, otherwise you are going to be marketing yourself in a herd (google english editing services). I get what you are saying, but it is easy to say oh yeah just go market yourself - that takes a lot of time and dedication to do in and of itself if you aren't really in it to win it (meaning loving to edit papers all day). Not saying that you aren't right about the rates, but I do question the ease at which people make something sound.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-07-2013 10:04 PM)AroundtheWorldin80Jobs Wrote:  

(01-07-2013 07:15 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

I think it really depends what kind you are doing and who are your clients. I mean if you are hooked up with a company and a contract that is one thing and your rates can go pretty high. But to get to that point you need to have a portfolio or have an in with that company which can take a long time. If you are looking at elance or a google search, you are looking at companies or people that are offering English editing services down to like 10 an hour. I am not saying that writers digest is off the mark ( I would say you can get that), I just would say it depends who you can get as a client. Furthermore, in terms of marketing yourself, I think the previous poster was right about just working your way up with clients and referrals, otherwise you are going to be marketing yourself in a herd (google english editing services). I get what you are saying, but it is easy to say oh yeah just go market yourself - that takes a lot of time and dedication to do in and of itself if you aren't really in it to win it (meaning loving to edit papers all day). Not saying that you aren't right about the rates, but I do question the ease at which people make something sound.

And I also get what you're saying. I really do.

But at the end of the day the difference between people who see that $25 per hour rate as high end and those who see it as low end is that the latter are looking at their business as a business and putting in the work to get it off the ground, even if that takes extra time and energy. Taking it major serious rather than hoping to hit the ground running is the real difference.

I also understand the desire to start cheap. I did the same myself in the writing biz and now regularly make over $100 per hour. At least in writing you can just build a portfolio by writing without having a client, so you've got me there.

But there's also a major difference between starting at a low rate to build a portfolio for the purpose of leveraging that portfolio and starting at a lower rate and staying there...

Here's one leveraging trick but certainly not the only one. As soon as you've got a full schedule, double your rates. Scared you'll lose half your clients? Don't be. You just cut your work in half and your income stayed the same. And you deleted the cheap problem clients who aren't running a real business out of your life.

Now you've got more time to market, and you've got a portolio to do it with.

I'm not saying you should compete through Google either - it's not as good of a competition gauge as you think. On-the-surface writing markets seem to only pay about $5 per article, if not less. I make more than $100 per hour on the regular, and I'm a lazy bastard who hasn't given marketing an honest effort in a long time. Those spammy sites in Google are not real competition if you learn to market directly to the companies who already value editors.

Is marketing yourself hard? Sure it is, but it is in any serious business. And it's also a major key to success in any business...in any industry. It's not the only key, but without it, businesses perish. Without it, new businesses, like us, never get footing and eventually lose heart and flounder. It becomes too much and we get burnt out on the low pay for the huge efforts.

The trick is to find people out there who are already making it in this business the right way and learning from them. No offense, really, but my assumption is that most people charging $25 per hour (when $50 per hour is the average) have not bought the top industry books about building a copyediting business the right way and read them or at least have not followed through on what they read.

No judgement there. I've been guilty of it myself. But there it is.

And I'm not a copyeditor, I'm a writer, so if I'm wrong, my foot's in my mouth already, but I really don't think I am. Not to mention that if it's really that much harder to move up in the editing business than it is the writing business, time to rethink your choice...

Here's the thing. When you're a freelancer, $25 per hour is simply not enough! If you factor in missing out on benefits (which you'll pay for yourself if you are taking your business and life seriously) and job security and time spent on marketing and admin work, you're making much less than the perceived rate. In my opinion (and the opinion of many experts), every freelancer offering a unique skill (like copywriting or writing) should aim for a minimum of $100 per billable hour to make it worth it.

Of course, we have a little breathing room since we aim to live in foreign countries, but if we maintain a 1st world income, we're just that much more flexible with our location. Otherwise, we stress the fuck out every time we come "home."

Again, and I really can't stress it enough, it's not easy. Point me out a sound business model that is easy though. They don't exist.

Number one lesson in any business - and this is especially true online - never set out to compete on price. It's a race to the bottom that you'll always lose because they're always be someone charging less.

Instead, explain how you're different than those spammy $10 an hour editors and communicate that to the prospects. Even better, figure out which prospects already know $10 an hour is a laughable price to pay and that those providers can't be trusted, and then your job is to simply convince them you're not one of those $10 an hour providers.

Easier said than done? Of course it is. But well worth the doing when you collect those checks. No doubt about it.

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

(01-07-2013 11:03 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(01-07-2013 10:04 PM)AroundtheWorldin80Jobs Wrote:  

(01-07-2013 07:15 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

I think it really depends what kind you are doing and who are your clients. I mean if you are hooked up with a company and a contract that is one thing and your rates can go pretty high. But to get to that point you need to have a portfolio or have an in with that company which can take a long time. If you are looking at elance or a google search, you are looking at companies or people that are offering English editing services down to like 10 an hour. I am not saying that writers digest is off the mark ( I would say you can get that), I just would say it depends who you can get as a client. Furthermore, in terms of marketing yourself, I think the previous poster was right about just working your way up with clients and referrals, otherwise you are going to be marketing yourself in a herd (google english editing services). I get what you are saying, but it is easy to say oh yeah just go market yourself - that takes a lot of time and dedication to do in and of itself if you aren't really in it to win it (meaning loving to edit papers all day). Not saying that you aren't right about the rates, but I do question the ease at which people make something sound.

And I also get what you're saying. I really do.

But at the end of the day the difference between people who see that $25 per hour rate as high end and those who see it as low end is that the latter are looking at their business as a business and putting in the work to get it off the ground, even if that takes extra time and energy. Taking it major serious rather than hoping to hit the ground running is the real difference.

I also understand the desire to start cheap. I did the same myself in the writing biz and now regularly make over $100 per hour. At least in writing you can just build a portfolio by writing without having a client, so you've got me there.

But there's also a major difference between starting at a low rate to build a portfolio for the purpose of leveraging that portfolio and starting at a lower rate and staying there.

Here's one trick but certainly not the only one. As soon as you've got a full schedule, double your rates. Scared you'll lose half your clients? Don't be. You just cut your work in half and your income stayed the same. And you deleted the cheap problem clients who aren't running a real business out of your life.

I'm not saying you should compete through Google either - it's not as good of a competition gauge as you think. On-the-surface writing markets seem to only pay about $5 per article, if not less. I make more than $100 per hour on the regular, and I'm a lazy bastard who hasn't given marketing an honest effort in a long time. Those spammy sites in Google are not real competition if you learn to market directly to the companies who already value editors.

Is marketing yourself hard? Sure it is, but it is in any serious business. And it's also a major key to success in any business...in any industry. It's not the only key, but without it, businesses perish.

The trick is to find people out there who are already making it in this business the right way and learning from them. No offense, really, but my assumption is that most people charging $25 per hour (when $50 per hour is the average) have not bought the top industry books about building a copyediting business the right way and read them or at least have not followed through on what they read.

I'm not a copyeditor, I'm a writer, so if I'm wrong, my foot's in my mouth already, but I really don't think I am. And if it's really that much harder to move up in the editing business than it is the writing business, time to rethink your choice...

Here's the thing. When you're a freelancer, $25 per hour is simply not enough! If you factor in missing out on benefits and job security and time spent on marketing and admin work, you're making much less than the perceived rate. In my opinion (and the opinion of many experts), every freelancer offering a unique skill (like copywriting or writing) should aim for a minimum of $100 per billable hour to make it worth it.

Again, and I really can't stress it enough, it's not easy. Point me out a sound business model that is easy though. They don't exist.

Number one lesson in any business - and this is especially true online - never set out to compete on price. It's a race to the bottom that you'll always lose because they're always be someone charging less.

Instead, explain how you're different than those spammy $10 an hour editors and communicate that to the prospects. Even better, figure out which prospects already know $10 an hour is a laughable price to pay and that those providers can't be trusted, and then your job is to simply convince them you're not one of those $10 an hour providers.

Easier said than done? Of course it is. But well worth the doing when you collect those checks. No doubt about it.

Copy---Editing. Huge difference.

From my experience, although limited, is copy editing is viewed way more of a commodity. You can only charge so much for it because although you maybe an English jedi, it is not nearly as creative or talent based as copy writing. Shit, for non-native speakers who are academics they want it on the cheap. Sure, they value a good editor but they are looking to refine their English so that is acceptable. Now, if you are talking about getting them published via content editing, also a different thing altogether with different price point. I am sure there are people out their editing for companies or specific industry stuff that is highly technical, but that wasnt what I was referring to.

I don't even like it or intend to put any effort in, I was merely offering up an opinion on another posters question.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-07-2013 11:13 PM)AroundtheWorldin80Jobs Wrote:  

Copy---Editing. Huge difference.

From my experience, although limited, is copy editing is viewed way more of a commodity. You can only charge so much for it because although you maybe an English jedi, it is not nearly as creative or talent based as copy writing. Shit, for non-native speakers who are academics they want it on the cheap. Sure, they value a good editor but they are looking to refine their English so that is acceptable. Now, if you are talking about getting them published via content editing, also a different thing altogether with different price point. I am sure there are people out their editing for companies or specific industry stuff that is highly technical, but that wasnt what I was referring to.

I don't even like it or intend to put any effort in, I was merely offering up an opinion on another posters question.

Yes, of course - I realize they're different. You must have misread my post as I only used what I do as a related example. You're right that they are different, and for that reason, the average for web page writing, for instance, is $83, while the average for business copyediting is $61. That reflects the difference right there.

The reason I used my work as an example is because plenty of people view SEO articles as a commodity too, but the ones who know better still pay big bucks. Believe me, I've had this same argument with people a million times when we were talking about writing and people have the same misconception about all writing-related services.

On another note, non-native speakers who are academics = the wrong market. Every copyeditor picks their own niche and who to target,, so that's a choice completely up to the provider. The solution is to simply target a different type of customer.

Alright, here is the Writer's Market Pricing guide for reference - this one's extremely outdated at 2005. http://www.writersmarket.com/assets/pdf/...Charge.pdf Pay particular attention to "copyediting for businesses." This is where the money is usually to be found in any writing/editing market. Average is stated at $61.

But even then why would we want to be average? Is this forum here about being average about anything??? That, as well as the reasons I mentioned in my last post, is why I repeat that $100 should be the long-term aim.

Look, I'm not trying to harp on you specifically here. Not at all, Man - that wasn't my intention. If anything, I'm just trying to make it clear to readers here that the potential is there. So please don't take it personal.

But regardless, you were thee one who interjected and countered my points so you're the one I'm responding too. So since I know you're not taking it personally and I know this thread directly affects people's potential livelihood, I'm going to continue. I hope you don't mind.

Here's my real aim here. I'm glad the OP brought this up because I do think it is a good business model for location independence.

But this forum is really about getting an edge in life where others don't bother. It's about making the most of efforts in game and life and reaping the rewards. So I urge anyone here who does get into this business to take it seriously.

Is it easy to get work at $10 per hour? Sure it is. $25 per hour? Not as easy but feels more reachable, right? But knowing that it's possible to make $61 on average or even well above that, why not plan from the beginning how you will take it to the top and go that extra mile? That's how we roll here, am I right? Why settle for good enough when you know what can be achieved with some effort? It's crazy.

By the way, I did Google "freelance copywriter." I ignored the paid advertisements and clicked on the 2 copyeditors who'd used natural rankings to get to the top of Google (all others were unrelated or vague). In other words, the ones who are marketing themselves clearly in google page #1.

Neither of these professionals offers a rate on their sites. Why do you think that is? It's a bit of a rhetorical question, at least to me, but it's essentially because they know how to market. They know what any serious professional (you could even call a true copyeditor a consultant) knows - that you never quote a price on your site because it makes your service a commodity and takes all the leverage out of negotiation. That every job is different and should be bid accordingly.

If their rate was $10 - $25 per hour, they would most likely just put it there on the site so people could see right away that they were competing on price. It would be a selling point for them. Instead, they choose to get people to contact them and then sell them on the VALUE of their service, which might range from superior copyediting skills (I'm sure plenty of cheap providers murder the material), dependability, a professional demeanor, punctuality, a specific niche or experience, and on and on.

My point is these people know business. And anyone here who wants to look at copyediting as a possible business model needs to learn business too. So they can charge accordingly.

I invite you guys to email these copyeditors as if you have a job and get a bid from them...just for your own research...

http://www.jessedit.com/
http://www.ericamidkiff.com

I would put money that they bid you a rate of $50 - $60 at the minimum. If you present yourself as a company and sound legitimate they'll probably adjust their rates accordingly and go even higher. I could be wrong since I'm only basing this on their positioning and the lack of price on their site, but I stand by that anyhow. It's enough for me.

And I'd venture that providers who contact clients directly through emailing, cold calling, networking, and direct mail are charging much more than that.

I just want these guys to see the possiblities, that's all. There's a lot more $$ out there in this than you think.

And if anyone is going to go into the copyediting business with a belief in their mind that the industry averages are unobtainable for them due to all the other cheap providers, I'd really advise them to consider just getting a job. I mean, I suppose you could do those cheap rates as just a way to get by for a while before moving onto your real career, but let's look at the real potential here.

Go big or go home, as they say...