[Adam Michaels]

Beyond Boarders, your definately an Idea Man. haha great move making that website. Gotta leverage the skillset

[IainMuirs]

Quote:

I would go with STA just because of the cheap fee to change the ticket.

Most airlines I've flown with allow you to change the ticket for a small fee anyway. Wouldn't booking through an agency increase the price of the ticket in the first place!

[seeker04542]

You seem pretty set on Thailand/CM but if money is your only or main concern when I went around SE Asia two years ago most of the other travelers I talked to recommended Laos as the cheapest/least commercialized/friendliest/most beautiful etc. country to visit in that region (It was the only one, apart from Myanmar, that I *didn't* visit; it didn't even occur to me when I planned out the trip.)

[IainMuirs]

Laos isn't much cheaper and it's much less modern. Internet in the major cities isn't great (yet ironically in Vang Vieng which is a small village in the middle of the mountains it's pretty fast -though it is a major tourist attraction for the tubing) which could be a problem for the OPs internet business. In Luang Prabang the net cuts off frequently or just doesn't work for hours on end and that's it's second city so something to keep in mind. Less distractions though, not such a major party place, girls more conservative and not legally allowed to be with foreigners (fine and jail for both of you is possible) so less distractions maybe but the lack of reliable net could be an issue.

[el mechanico]

I read the first post here a few times but not the rest. I highly recommend when you move to a strange place to have a big budget and then shrink it over time. You should have 500 a week spending money for the first 6 months no matter how cheap a place is. Learning the place and getting settled cost$$$$$$$. Go in hard even if you have to sell some shit and then taper back. Everytime I've heard stories of guys moving on strict/tight budgets it seems to end up failing and even wasting more money because you have to do it over.

[IainMuirs]

Quote:

Learning the place and getting settled cost$$$$$$$.

Yep! It takes time to get the lay of the land. Even in the cheapest of places you have to figure out the true price of things, deal with people trying to over charge you as a tourist, work out what things should and shouldn't cost, find the cheap areas to live in, the cheap places to eat and drink etc. It takes time to get down to a normal budget, it takes even longer to get everything down to local prices.

Quote:

Everytime I've heard stories of guys moving on strict/tight budgets it seems to end up failing and even wasting more money because you have to do it over.

Same. I know loads of people who have planned to go abroad for extended periods or live abroad and they tell everyone about it, build it up and it gets closer to the time and they don't have as much cash as they thought they would or get itchy feet and want to take off early. Instead of waiting and building up some more cash they hastily rush off with less than enough money, over spend massively due to the settling in period (or the excitement of getting carried away in a new country), and are back home, broke, before you know it.

[Beyond Borders]

(09-22-2012 09:04 PM)IainMuirs Wrote:  

Laos isn't much cheaper and it's much less modern. Internet in the major cities isn't great (yet ironically in Vang Vieng which is a small village in the middle of the mountains it's pretty fast -though it is a major tourist attraction for the tubing) which could be a problem for the OPs internet business. In Luang Prabang the net cuts off frequently or just doesn't work for hours on end and that's it's second city so something to keep in mind. Less distractions though, not such a major party place, girls more conservative and not legally allowed to be with foreigners (fine and jail for both of you is possible) so less distractions maybe but the lack of reliable net could be an issue.

If I may, here's my take on Laos, having spent about 4 months there, off and on.

First off, Vientianne is far underrated as a living destination, especially for someone working online and trying to get things done. I'm only going to focus on that city specifically because it's the only one that makes sense for a serious businessman. Most people blast through for a visa or en route after doing the riverboat trip and tubing in Viang Vieng, but I spent some real time there getting work done, and the place will really grow on you.

I seriously considered settling in for a while.

The Food Variety is Amazing

That city, while small and quiet, has a better selection of foreign food restaurants than any other place in Southeast Asia, drawing not only from my own limited experiences but the experiences of others I've talked to who've been all over the region.

French, Italian, Mexican, Turkish, Indian. Most importantly, unlike many of the shabby excuses for foreign cuisine you find in Thailand, the restaurants in Vientiane are cooking up some delicious grub. You'll never run out of great eating options in Vientiane, that's for sure.

Nightlife

It's pretty quiet for the most part, but there are some clubs that stay open all night if you look around a bit. The curfew is supposed to be midnight, and the government does crack down sometimes - they were enforcing the curfew more last time I was there - but on some visits there were no shortage of all-night parties. Go to Viang Vieng for the occaissional rave and backpacker chicks.

You do get the advantage of not having the party in your face all the time. It's far less chaotic and noisy than Thailand, and this holds a lot of appeal for those that stick around. I really learned to cherish my "breaks from Thailand" when heading up for a visa run.

Local Women


Yes, it's technically illegal to sleep with a local woman if you aren't married. My research and own experiences show this to be hardly ever enforced. I slept in a Lao girl's house and I've brought multiple women back to my hotel room. Some places won't allow it - some look the other way.

The deal is that in the vast majority of cases, people mind their own business and will not give flak to a foreigner with a Lao gf or parade of "giks."

That said, if you're the kind of person who draws a lot of attention to yourself and/or the local authorities want a reason to get rid of you, the law may be enforced. (running down the street with a short local chick over your shoulder, saying "one kilo" over and over isn't exactly incognito, but it's funny as hell lol)

Enforcement usually means getting you to pay a fine and then forcing you to leave the country - maybe just one of the two. From what I've heard, it doesn't even mean you can't come back, though you should do your own research on the blacklisting issue.

Yes, it is something to be aware of and take into account, but there are plenty of foreign workers and expats over there getting their freak on. In most cases, it just pays to be somewhat discrete.

I noticed the women had bigger breasts than Thais.

This is a good thing.

EDIT: Importing a Thai gf or Western gif is an obvious solution but both mean settling down, which most of us don't want.

Lao People Can Be a Little Aggressive

Maybe it's my own personal experience, but I found the Lao people to be a little more confrontational than the Thais. Thais can be pretty violent but as long as you keep your cool and don't mess with people you won't ever have a problem.

In Laos, on the other hand, I've had multiple instances (usually involving alcohol) of people putting me on the spot or trying to start an argument with me. In one case, a guy even headbutted me in the forehead in a club, and I had the good sense to turn and walk away (I was by myself and he was with a crowd of outlaw-looking locals). This type of thing simply never happened to me in Thailand.

Ladyboys will follow you on the streets at night when walking home from the bar. They are pretty aggressive as well, and getting tailed by a couple dudes in drag down a dark, unlit street in the wee hours of the morning (while you're shitfaced no less) can be quite unnerving.

I think a big part of the aggression in Laos has to do with the fact that it is such a small country with such a rocky past. Coming from Laos is akin to coming from some mountain town in Northern California where the nearest city is 2 hours away (I grew up in a place like this so I should know). People from many other Southeast Asian countries also look down on them.

I think these issues combined with the hardship creates a real sense of national pride and ethnocentrism.

There's also a lot of reason for them to have animosity towards Americans for past atrocities, and most seem to have forgiven, but people are still getting blown up there every year from unexploded ordinance (don't go to Vientiane without a visit to the sobering UXE museum and making a donation).

I've had at least one drunken Lao guy confront me on American politics (two others stuck up for me and told him I was cool even though I just met them). Another Laos confronted me about paying for people to like me and throwing my money around. Anyone watching could see that this was hardly the case. I was in a club with a Thai and a Lao guy drinking with some girls, but we weren't even paying for the girls drinks - we were all sharing costs.

The Thai mediated and explained I wasn't that kind of traveler, and the problem went away.

There is also a real outlaw culture in Laos, much like you might find in the boondocks in the States. They truly are living in the wild west out there.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying, by any means, that Lao people are not friendly or are always like this. These instances were a mere 1% in a ton of encounters I had with very friendly people who were super happy I was in their country. And they are not even a fraction as aggressive as the Vietnamese.

So don't let it concern you - just breaking down the realities as I saw them. If you don't frequent local drinking establishments all that much, you probably won't even notice at all.

Asshole Expats

Even more alarming to me was the state of the expat population in Laos, especially if you spend time in the bars and clubs. I found there were a ton of assholes in Vientiane.

I think the reason for this is that a lot of the guys are working there, making a good deal of money, and have really developed the attitude of a big fish in a small town. This is a phenomenon a few other people I've talked to noticed while there too.

Common observations were Western guys who got far too loud and obnoxious, made rude comments, and even trying to start fights. I find it's usually the Brits and the Americans you have to watch out for.

To be honest, I'd rather deal with an asshole local than an asshole expat there any day of the week; hence why I preferred going native while there.

Opportunities in Laos

Opportunities, specifically in the capital, seem abundant. The country is resource-rich. Incomes are growing. There's a promising future ahead. If you're they type of guy who likes to get his feet on the ground and break into new markets, this wouldn't be a bad place to be at all. Also, if you've ever thought of starting a business that services expats, the growth in Vientiane's future will be bringing a lot of business your way.

I also think it would be little easier to stay and do business. As far as I know, you can keep stepping across the border and coming back in for a visa on arrival indefinitely (and in Vientiane the border is right down the road). I can't vouch for the validity of this statement so look into it.

By looking into it I mean asking on forums not reading the "official" rules on government sites.

Another point is the same reason so many expats are pricks there - again, it's easy to become a big fish in a small pond in Vientiane. Within my first week there, I met a guy who was pretty high up in the government. he owned a couple restaurants and hotels in the city I was going to build websites for, and his wife introduced us.

Guy had studied in Russia, spoke several languages, and had traveled all over Europe (not your typical cat). He bought me a ticket to the SEA Games (basically the Southeast Asian Olympics) and was obviously nurturing me as an important business contact.

He was very encouraging about the possibility of living in Laos, getting a long-term visa, and starting a business. He said just bring my ideas to him and there was always a way to make it work (they are very interested in getting more money into their country and creating jobs).

I would think someone a bit more business savvy than I would go a long way if they conducted themselves with self-respect, professionalism, and a confident air in that country. I probably could have done it myself if I'd just have stuck around.

Acting like the typical drunken sexpat would be a huge success killer though, even on occaission - Vientiane is a very small city. But with the rest of Southeast Asia at your fingertips for side vacations, a balance of work and play would be easy as long as you had the budget.

The Internet Situation

Internet in vientiane can be shabby - not many good internet cafes.

One that stands out very well, though, is the coffee shop in the downtown area called TRUE Coffee - the fastest internet in town and probably the fastest in all of Laos. They have computers that are in pretty good shape and free wireless for customers.

I hung out all day working and no one complained.

The place is air-conditioned - very nice treat in Laos - and looks like a nice Western coffee shop. Furniture is comfortable. The drinks and desserts are pretty tasty. I spent all my time here working while staying in the city and a lot of successful expat businessmen from thailand come through the very spot, so networking possibilities do exist. Remember - almost every Thailand expat goes there from time to time to handle their visa paperwork.

You can also get internet at your room if you get an apartment or condo, and I've been told the speed is pretty decent in a situation like that.

Or check out getting internet through a mobile provider and you can take it with you wherever you go.

Here you go: "For mobile internet access, Beeline, LTC, ETL and Unitel all offer some UMTS HSDPA 3G-3.75G services in Vientiane and Lao provincial cities, with 2G EDGE and GPRS as a fallback in less-populated areas. Unitel downloads up to 5 Mbps – faster than LaoTel and ETL. Currently, Beeline has the fastest 3G in Laos and will launch a 4G/LTE service in Vientiane later in 2012. See all Laos ISP data plans and rates." from http://www.retire-asia.com/lao-communications.shtml

The Prices

Costs in Laos are about the same as in Thailand, give or take - sometimes cheaper simply because there isn't as much going out to big clubs and partying. Food tends to be more expensive if you eat foreign cuisines downtown but can stay pretty cheap in Laos neighborhoods. Lodging in Vientiane can be steep for something nice but if you do your homework cheaper units are definitely out there.

Again - knowing how to talk to the people is your key.

A Few Other Things

Beer Laos is hands down the best beer in Southeast Asia, maybe all of Asia, and has won awards in Belgium beer festivals. It is a true pride of the people and a huge part of everyday life there. I've never met a people so passionately proud of their beer culture.

I'd say the best thing about Laos is the sheer beauty and the outdoor adventure. It's known to a lot of internationally-minded motorcycle riders as the best place in the world to tour, and I have done some touring the countryside myself.

(WARNING: aimless reminiscing below)

I tried to hunt down the famous fireballs of Naga this last fall. I drove 3 or 4 hours off into the country and got directions down some muddy dirt road, where I drove for about another hour before reaching the Mekong (the kid who gave me the directions barely spoke English so I wasn't sure if I was even going the right way).

there was a shitload of people out there when I finally arrived but not one single farang seemed to know about it. I met a well-to-do Laos family who invited me to sit down at their table to eat and drink beer. They spoke Thai so conversation was manageable. Lots of laughs. Didn't get out of there until midnight or later.

On the way back it was pouring down rain and the mud was so slippery I must have laid over the bike literally 15 times. lol It was crazy, but I was laughing the whole time. Covered in mud from head to toe and thought for sure I was lost or the bike would break down, but I finally made it back to the pavement.

The Naga never showed up but it was one of the funnest motorbike trips I ever took in my life and I'll never forget it.

You can also rent a high-powered dirtbike and drive over the mountains to Vietnam, which I was planning to do before detouring back to America to see a friend that was dying of cancer.

Laos also has a lot of great rafting, kayaking, rock climbing, and caving. If you're an outdoorsy guy, you really can't go wrong there.

[IainMuirs]

Nice Laos report, we must have been there at the same time as I was in Vientianne whilst the SEA games was on too, jacked the prices for accommodation right up. Couldn't believe how expensive a basic guest house cost me.

Quote:

That city, while small and quiet, has a better selection of foreign food restaurants than any other place in Southeast Asia, drawing not only from my own limited experiences but the experiences of others I've talked to who've been all over the region.

Whilst it might have a good selection of restaurants it doesn't come close to Bangkok or Chiang Mai, those are both world class food destinations with restaurants from the world over. CM has so many good Mexican restaurants it's unreal.

I'm surprised you found hostility with locals, they all seemed so friendly and chilled. Nice people always willing to share a beer and some food. Can understand why there would be some though considering the past.

Agree on the beer, Beer Lao is the best in the region and those mint and lime shakes are incredible. Shame about the LaoLao 'whisky' though.

[iop890]

(09-21-2012 12:43 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

The OP might benefit from a girlfriend for the first few months. Let her do the shopping, and cook. And look for apartments.

Seconded

I'm not even in bkk yet and I've gotten a girl to go around looking for apartments, use her job to get me cheaper airline tickets, and give me a Blackberry. This shit is awesome.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Awesome posts Beyond Border! I really like some of your ideas. Let's do a skype chat sometimes.

[kavakid]

Several people commented that prices have gone up drastically since 2004. But let me be more clear about the prices I paid. This was in 2004, so obviously prices have gone up.

When I said hotel room for $3 US , I meant a ROOM. As In just the mattress and maybe a bathroom. We are not talking about something resembling an american hotel room. In the islands of the south, it was a grass hut, with a shared bathroom outside. But it was ON the beach and easy walk to nightlife.

When I said a small meal for $.25 US, I meant one of those to go deals they put in a plastic bag at the fresh food market. Not a sit down place.

As far as hookers go. I had so many freebies that the street price now or then is irrelevant (at least to me). I can't imagine that its not still negotiable today, depending on your appeal to the hookers, as most of the ones I met seemed pretty independent of any pimp.

Can't comment on apartments really. But all I can say is that the old gringo expats that told me about $50 high rise condos said that you really have to search and know people. That is not retail price. But, yes, I am sure that prices have gone up since 2004.

As far as earning money there, looking at Dave's ESL cafe... I remember that it seemed doable to get around the college degree requirement. And there is always tutoring. Also, there is the possibility of starting a business or working for a foreigner in their small business.

[Beyond Borders]

(09-23-2012 08:24 AM)IainMuirs Wrote:  

Nice Laos report, we must have been there at the same time as I was in Vientianne whilst the SEA games was on too, jacked the prices for accommodation right up. Couldn't believe how expensive a basic guest house cost me.

Oh, right on, Man. Did you go to the games? The prices were definitely through the roof when that went down, but wow, what a turn out! The beer sure flowed, that's for sure...

Quote:

Whilst it might have a good selection of restaurants it doesn't come close to Bangkok or Chiang Mai, those are both world class food destinations with restaurants from the world over. CM has so many good Mexican restaurants it's unreal.

Sure, they do have a large diversity of food in those places too - Bangkok is an international hub and it's to be expected. You'll never find such a concentration of high quality foreign cuisine in such a tiny area as you will in downtown Vientiane though, especially French and Italian.

There are a lot of Mexican places in Chiang Mai, but it's more like a watered-down American version of Mexican -great for satisfying the craving but not much else. Then again, you won't find authentic mexican anywhere in Laos either, so it was probably a bad example to throw in the mix.

A great niche market in SE Asia, in my opinion. A lot of Americans I talk to miss Mexican food more than anything else and are willing to pay a pretty penny if they could only get the good stuff.

Quote:

I'm surprised you found hostility with locals, they all seemed so friendly and chilled. Nice people always willing to share a beer and some food. Can understand why there would be some though considering the past.

Yes, they are friendly and chilled for the most part; this was the usual experience for me as well. But keep in mind that I'm the only white face in late night out-of-the way clubs long-term expats say they didn't even know existed, and I'm completely walking in by myself. These places are likely seen by the locals as their own domain and some are likely not too keen on them getting invaded by outsiders. There is alcohol involved as well.

Here's another example.

My first night in Luang Prabang, which at the time was supposed to not have any spots besides the bowling alley that closed after midnight, ended with me in some backstreet disco that closed at 5 in the morning. Met a girl who took me home to her house and the next night invited me to a temple party where she introduced me to another white "friend."

She was trying to get us to compete with each other, and when it didn't work, she began to ridicule me subtly and then not so subtly and the more I ignored it, engaged in the conversation, and changed the subject the more angry she got. Eventually, she was actually raising her voice in public, at which point I politely excused myself and went back to my room.

In Thailand, it was rare to see this kind of unprovoked public aggression, especially from a young, wealthy woman. Women play games there but not blatant and in-your-face ones; confrontation is a no-no. Yes, it's one occurrence among very many, but still very strange in contrast to Thailand.

I also had a Lao friend who lived in Thailand that was always starting fights with Thais. If he got drunk, he would even get a bit edgy with me, and one time he punched a mutual Thai friend in the face for no real reason. He even pulled a gun on someone one night at Fabrique in chiang mai. All my Thai buddies began distancing themselves from him because they figured he was going to end up getting offed.

He eventually went back to Laos. I think he was just a wild cowboy of sorts and there was no changing it.

The majority of Lao people are extremely tolerable. But there is a rebellious, proud, and anxious undercurrent there that only a long-time stay or a knack for getting into the back alleys and mixing with the lower classes will reveal. I can't say I was long-term there, exactly, but more often than not anywhere I travel I end up in places and situations most people never see, giving me an insight a lot of others never get around to grasping.

I also studied international business and intercultural communication in America and Europe briefly and have read extensively on intercultural dynamics, so I think I've kind of conditioned my brain to spot the nuances in other cultural situations that others don't. I can't tell you how many times I've sat down at a table with other Western tourists and marveled at how clueless they were about what was actually going on around them.

For instance, in any foreign culture, especially in street situations and double especially in a nationalist culture, sometimes there is hostility and a bit of ridicule going on that you aren't 100% aware of. The language barrier further exxaggerates this.

The majority of the time it's just good-natured ribbing. Other times there is something slightly more sinister and ignorant going on. The most important thing to remember though is that even the slightly more dangerous situations can usually be overcome with a good attitude, a cool head, and striking a fine balance between passiveness and assertiveness (if that makes sense lol).

You can usually break through the most icy exterior anywhere if you "tolerate" a little ignorance and continue trying to win them over without being too appeasing - not to mentioning knowing when to look someone dead in the eye and let the non-verbal side of what you're saying register.

It's kind of a hard skill to describe. But I'd say that anyone who wanted to live in and fraternize with the locals in Laos would do well to learn it if possible.

[WanderingSoul]

(09-23-2012 08:24 AM)IainMuirs Wrote:  

Whilst it might have a good selection of restaurants it doesn't come close to Bangkok or Chiang Mai, those are both world class food destinations with restaurants from the world over. CM has so many good Mexican restaurants it's unreal.

You say that because you are Australian bro lol. I'm from California, and I have eaten at quite a few of the Mexican restaurants in CM, and I can say they are not very good. They are not bad, but if you come to California and eat Mexican food, you will see what I mean.

[Beyond Borders]

(09-23-2012 04:13 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(09-23-2012 08:24 AM)IainMuirs Wrote:  

Whilst it might have a good selection of restaurants it doesn't come close to Bangkok or Chiang Mai, those are both world class food destinations with restaurants from the world over. CM has so many good Mexican restaurants it's unreal.

You say that because you are Australian bro lol. I'm from California, and I have eaten at quite a few of the Mexican restaurants in CM, and I can say they are not very good. They are not bad, but if you come to California and eat Mexican food, you will see what I mean.

Ah, Australian - that explains the statement. I'm from Cali too, and I completely agree with you, Rio. We're lucky here as far as Mexican food goes.

[IainMuirs]

Quote:

Oh, right on, Man. Did you go to the games? The prices were definitely through the roof when that went down, but wow, what a turn out! The beer sure flowed, that's for sure...

I didn't attend any of the games. I wasn't even aware they were on until arriving. I met a Thai girl in Khon Kaen, Thailand and told her I wanted to go to Laos a few days later. She had family in Vientianne so she drove me there where we met her cousin and spent a couple of nights staying at his house. I kinda felt trapped being at her families house and wanted to break away so went to find a guesthouse and struggled, ended up paying about $50 for a place. It wasn't worth that price, that's when I found out the games were on.

Quote:

Yes, they are friendly and chilled for the most part; this was the usual experience for me as well. But keep in mind that I'm the only white face in late night out-of-the way clubs long-term expats say they didn't even know existed, and I'm completely walking in by myself. These places are likely seen by the locals as their own domain and some are likely not too keen on them getting invaded by outsiders. There is alcohol involved as well.

Yeah I could see why that could cause problems.

Quote:

In Thailand, it was rare to see this kind of unprovoked public aggression, especially from a young, wealthy woman. Women play games there but not blatant and in-your-face ones; confrontation is a no-no. Yes, it's one occurrence among very many, but still very strange in contrast to Thailand.

I also had a Lao friend who lived in Thailand that was always starting fights with Thais. If he got drunk, he would even get a bit edgy with me, and one time he punched a mutual Thai friend in the face for no real reason. He even pulled a gun on someone one night at Fabrique in chiang mai. All my Thai buddies began distancing themselves from him because they figured he was going to end up getting offed.

Thais generally like to avoid confrontation wherever possible which is good but get on the wrong side of them and they'll stick together and fuck you up. I try never to piss of Thais as fights that I've seen (not that I've seen many) are very rarely one on one, half the street ends up getting involved and if you are a farang they'll all join in giving you a good kicking.

One annoying thing about Thais though, whilst they do like to avoid confrontation where possible they also will never lose face. So even if they know they are completely wrong they won't back down or apologise. Can cause problems.

Quote:

You say that because you are Australian bro lol. I'm from California, and I have eaten at quite a few of the Mexican restaurants in CM, and I can say they are not very good. They are not bad, but if you come to California and eat Mexican food, you will see what I mean.

I say that because I've been to Mexico and eaten real Mexican food. None of the places are as good as what you'll get in Mexico it's self but it's decent, especially considering it's in SE Asia.

[DoctaWho]

First of congratulations on your decision. It is kind of weird that you want to move to a specific city that you have never been to in a foreign country. It is just my opinion, but if you can save some extra money you may be better served writing a list of 6 SE Asian cities that appeal to you and spend your first 1-2 months living at least a week in each (when I say living I don't mean staying on Khao San Road). I only say this because I met a guy in KL who had been to BKK on vacation a couple of times and decided he wanted to live there. When he made the move it only took 2 weeks for him to realize that it was not the place for him. At that point he lost a part of his security deposit, some money he had spent signing up for language lessons...

If cost of living is your concern, there are tons of cities with modern amenities in SE Asia that are close to Chiang Mai if you know how to get around. If you like Thailand you should look into some of the cities in Isaan. If you're open to other countries consider Vientiane, Nong Khiaw, Phnom Penh and Mui Ne.

Nong Khiaw is in Laos and would be a great place to live for a while, especially if you wanted to decompress and were not concerned about meeting women. There's not a lot to do but the wifi in my bungalow was very fast and for the most part reliable. There was an outage but it was do to a storm and not the infrastructure. The people were also incredible in that everyone seemed fair and trusting. For example, we were at one of the restaurants drinking and the family was ready to go to bed so they told us to just come back and pay in the morning.

Your budget is slightly realistic but most foreigners are better served by spending some extra money and living nicer. Like others have said, getting a local girlfriend will probably save you money especially if she lives with you. Just make sure that any girl you let live with you has a job.

The one thing you don't want to skimp on is your apartment. Many SE Asian live in apartments that would be in no way comfortable for the average Westerner. It is not unusual for there to be one main room, one small room for your bed, a squat toilet, no sink and exposed electrical wiring. The difference between $150 and $250 can mean distinct rooms, a/c, a housekeeper...

Your food budget may be a bit low. You can get a meal on the street for $1/meal almost anywhere in Thailand, but you also need to factor in the cost of water or whatever you choose to drink and those occasional cravings for non-Thai food. Like others have said, go to where the locals go and avoid most restaurants. If you go the girlfriend route and get an apartment with a kitchen or invest in a rice cooker and electric hotplate then you'll probably easily stay on budget.

I think $100 going out is feasible depending on where you go and how often you go out. One of the best things about Thailand is that most clubs will let you bring in a bottle if you buy chasers and you can leave the bottle at the bar for next time. That said, you can spend $20 on a bottle of whiskey that may last a month. This helps with women as well because instead of buying drinks you can let the ones you like have a drink from your bottle. You would also be best served by meeting others to go out with so you can split the bill. Beer is pretty cheap as well and it is not out of the ordinary to find several bars with specials.

If you want cheap rent then you may need to wait until you arrive. I can think of two places near the moat that are dirt cheap. One will get you a private room for $5-7/day and the other is pretty much a mattress on the floor in a large room for $3/day. The owners at both places are very nice and will help you find an apartment. Another thing to do is talk to every expat you meet about where they live and what is available. The university areas are supposed to offer great value.

I think someone mentioned Thais making lousy friends which is something I both disagree and agree with. It seemed that in many of the SE Asian countries the people were corrupted by the quantity and type of foreigners they have dealt with. You encounter a wide range of people from those who will give you half of their small amount of food because you look hungry to those who will tell you to your face that it is okay to cheat foreigners. The trick is weeding out the good ones from the bad quickly. If you carry yourself well and treat most of them with respect, you will for the most part be treated fairly. Most of them, like many people where you are from, are hard working and proud of the things they have.

There is some aggression from local men in all of the countries. Alcohol does exacerbate things and so do situations where you are outnumbered. The key is to stay calm and respectful and in some cases just to let them rant (most will not attack unless you do first and unless you are a dick someone will usually step in to calm things down quickly). For me it was the worst in Cambodia but it was mainly because many Khmers make no attempt to conceal their deception and when caught, unlike others, will still expect you to smile and go along with it. I did find that some Thai guys get a little upset when they see foreigners with some types of Thai women, but if you have a Thai social circle you seem to get a free pass.

On the subject of expats, I found most of them to be okay. IMO, the ones in Laos were great. I don't recall too many who were not open to a conversation once it became clear that I was not some asshole backpacker. It's possible that Beyond Borders ran into some guys from Thailand on visa runs. For some reason plenty of those guys seemed to have a chip on their shoulder once they crossed the Friendship Bridge.

When you move I think the English teachers are some of the best expats to know along with the retired guys. Keep in mind that just because some guy engages in an activity that you don't agree with does not make him creepy or unworthy of a conversation.

[OldRich]

Awesome first post!

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First of congratulations on your decision. It is kind of weird that you want to move to a specific city that you have never been to in a foreign country. It is just my opinion, but if you can save some extra money you may be better served writing a list of 6 SE Asian cities that appeal to you and spend your first 1-2 months living at least a week in each (when I say living I don't mean staying on Khao San Road).

I have to choose something and Chiang Mai seems like a pretty cool place to live. I'm not a big fan of moving around too much for the first month. I think I'll spend way more money moving and majorly chaotic. I'll check out Bangkok for a few days and MAYBE another city. Having more options for places to live will just give me paralysis by analysis.

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Your budget is slightly realistic but most foreigners are better served by spending some extra money and living nicer. Like others have said, getting a local girlfriend will probably save you money especially if she lives with you. Just make sure that any girl you let live with you has a job.

Getting a GF to save money sounds a bit idealistic to be honest. I'm kinda surprised so many people suggest this. I think GF is a huge time killer and a distraction. How much money am I going to save with a GF? those could be the time I spend on making money on my biz.

[IainMuirs]

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you may be better served writing a list of 6 SE Asian cities that appeal to you and spend your first 1-2 months living at least a week in each (when I say living I don't mean staying on Khao San Road)

You can't live somewhere for a week, you wouldn't even begin to get a feel for things and would be no better off than if you spent a week at Kowsan road. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, getting an apartment for a week or two? Short term apartments cost a lot more than long term rentals (and are more expensive than budget guest houses) and would eat massively into his budget. Moving around also costs more as you have transport costs, visa costs if going to Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam, it takes time to figure out where the cheap accommodation, food, drinks etc are. When budget is his main issue it wouldn't be wide to move around like this.

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That said, you can spend $20 on a bottle of whiskey that may last a month

7/11 sells small bottles of Rock 101 'whisky' for 79baht. Tastes rank but chuck some ice and coke in with it and you can't tell the difference between drinking a premium brand mixed with coke.

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Getting a GF to save money sounds a bit idealistic to be honest. I'm kinda surprised so many people suggest this. I think GF is a huge time killer and a distraction. How much money am I going to save with a GF? those could be the time I spend on making money on my biz.

Whilst it wouldn't be difficult to get a local 'girlfriend' I don't agree that it will save you money. You could end up spending more if she's the type of Thai girl who expects the man / foreigner to pay for meals, drinks, taxis etc (many Thai girls do). It would definitely be a distraction yes. Thai girls get quite clingy, fast.