[soup]

The Alpha vs. Beta debate can be ridiculous around here at times, but after reading Heartiste's latest blog about body types, and Krauser's post on Sigma vs. Alpha, I believe that it might help all of our games to know where we all stand stand in this spectrum that is more than just Alpha vs. Beta.

We all need to be congruent in our game. Knowing what tribe you fit into, and how you fit into that tribe, can help you figure out the best way to sell yourself.

I think that grade-school social relations are probably a close approximation of what our social hierarchies looked like at the end of our most recent evolution.

To me, Alpha is the captain of the football team. They guy who has it made in society.

Sigma is the bad-ass rebel guy.

Beta is the guy who just goes to school and does his homework etc.- the good boy who spectates on the sigmas and alphas. The beta secretly wishes he were either one.

My sense is that the guys at RVF are, at heart, Sigmas. We are the lone-wolves who were not the captains of the football team, and reject or distrust society. If we were Alphas, we probably wouldn't be reading RVF in the first place.

We are the rugged individualists, the Clint Eastwoods of the dating market.

Instead of trying to be the Alpha leader of society, might it not be better to just embrace the more mysterious Sigma/solo side?

Personally, I've always felt a greater affinity for the outsider. I think my heart is more the loner's. So far, I've done my best best rolling solo.

[I'mWaitingForTheMan]

I'll have to think about this in depth. But I do know that Beta, Alpha and Sigma gets shortened to B.A.S. which also stands for...

BITCHES AINT SHIT

[Thomas the Rhymer]

I feel like the sigma thing is just another example of the Forer effect.

The only use for social interaction models is to learn from them; once their use is gone they can be discarded. When you start off the alpha-beta thing is a useful guide to behavioural change, it's not the ultimate truth of existence. Once you've used up the model you need to throw it away.

So if we start overcomplicating things by introducing this sigma character, what do we stand to learn from it? I feel like this would be the beginning of the building of an ivory tower where game is killed in the name of academic categories.

I don't see the utility of it at all.

But feel free to disagree with me.

[soup]

(08-16-2012 01:33 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

I feel like the sigma thing is just another example of the Forer effect.

The only use for social interaction models is to learn from them; once their use is gone they can be discarded. When you start off the alpha-beta thing is a useful guide to behavioural change, it's not the ultimate truth of existence. Once you've used up the model you need to throw it away.

So if we start overcomplicating things by introducing this sigma character, what do we stand to learn from it? I feel like this would be the beginning of the building of an ivory tower where game is killed in the name of academic categories.

I don't see the utility of it at all.

But feel free to disagree with me.

Well, I've never felt a great resonance with either the alpha or beta character, but I do have a strong feeling for Sigma.

The reason I'm bringing it up is that I think that Sigma is probably more relevant to guys who have "taken the red pill."

Almost everything we talk about here is about recognizing the "pretty lies" that hold us back, and figuring out ways to overcome them.

So, I don't think it's just a Forer Effect. We are outsiders. Roosh recently made a thread exploring game and manosphere blogs as counterculture.

[RawGod]

I think that the idea of sigma is valuable. Alphas are at the top of the hierarchy, betas are the worker drones, but sigmas don't buy into the hierarchy.

In certain primates, some individual males don't compete to be alpha in their group. Instead, they move from group to group, on the fringes, and sneakily mate with the females. I think this describes sigma well and equates to what many of us do.

When there is a war, the betas are the grunts, and the alphas are the officers. The sigmas avoid the draft and go to a neutral country where they drink booze and make money in the black market. Probably cuckolding the alphas in the process.

In some discussions, people have said that a lot of us in the manosphere are actually omegas (losers) who want to be seen as the cool outsider because we fail at being alphas. While there might be an element of truth in this for some people, I think the sigma archetype is genuine and some of us are wired that way. If you're doing what you want, independent in your work life, and getting laid, you're not omega.

[dog24]

(08-16-2012 01:17 AM)soup Wrote:  

Instead of trying to be the Alpha leader of society, might it not be better to just embrace the more mysterious Sigma/solo side?

Sigma, loner, late bloomer, baby face, introvert, ectomorph checking in. I think most of us possess one if not all of those traits.
For me society used to reject me when i was omega in my teens, then i matured in a lot of ways, and society kind of invited me to join. Suddenly the cool guys tried to befriend me, bishes stop treating me like garbage and acknowledge my existence.
After learning game, and reading about social dinamics/status wars i decided i wasnt going to play that game. Once you understand why your "friend" is trying to amog you in front of the whole group or why the prettiest girl is looking down on you because you dont have enough "social proof" it just becomes stupid, i personally sometimes see this people like poor animals that dont understand their primal instincts so they live their lives trying to rationalize their shitty actions in behave of the almighty status.
Dont forget that most people arent as self-aware as all of us at this forum.

For my point of view i can tell you people treat me in a very black or white way. Some respect and even admire me, some outright hate me, usually the no value leeches.
My brother and some friends come to tell me from time to time that some bish finds me "intriguing". I doubt they would think that way of me if i was rightdown ugly, i know cause ive been there, if youre not phisically attractive then youre just creepy loner guy.
Some of my friends used to joke about me being autistic, but when i get one on one with a female they always tell me that im not how they imagined me to be, and even after getting to know each other they think i have a misterious/dark side.

So to answer your question NO, social alpha beats sigma everyday.
Some girls would fuck you just for status, if youre a sigma you cant give her that.
If any of you want to enlarge the pool of women willing to meet you without cold approach, you must play the social game and try to climb the latter.
I prefer not to, but it definitely makes things harder.

[soup]

As much as it pains me to say, I think that the we might have more in common with the "herbivore men" in Japan who are fed up with today's woman than the majority of American beta males who have taken the blue pill.

The difference is that we've utilized game knowledge to make the most of the situation instead of throwing in the towel.

dog24, the question is not about which is better, Sigma vs. Alpha. Of course the Alphas get top quality ass. This isn't a debate like the looks/$ vs. game stuff that keeps getting threaded. Yes, those things will help, but my sense is that the guys here have more in common with the backdoor-man than the Alpha king. And, if we can figure out ways to focus on that already existent energy instead of trying to fit into someone else's game, maybe we can get even more out this endeavor sooner.

[RawGod]

(08-16-2012 02:17 AM)soup Wrote:  

As much as it pains me to say, I think that the we might have more in common with the "herbivore men" in Japan who are fed up with today's woman than the majority of American beta males who have taken the blue pill.

The difference is that we've utilized game knowledge to make the most of the situation instead of throwing in the towel.

That doesn't make sense. The key thing about herbivores is that they have thrown in the towel. They have a mincing, meek demeanor, and they do.not.get.laid.at.all.

[soup]

(08-16-2012 02:30 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

(08-16-2012 02:17 AM)soup Wrote:  

As much as it pains me to say, I think that the we might have more in common with the "herbivore men" in Japan who are fed up with today's woman than the majority of American beta males who have taken the blue pill.

The difference is that we've utilized game knowledge to make the most of the situation instead of throwing in the towel.

That doesn't make sense. The key thing about herbivores is that they have thrown in the towel. They have a mincing, meek demeanor, and they do.not.get.laid.at.all.

Yes, they are like us in their strong rejection of society. I'd bet those guys have no idea about learning how to get good at game, and believe that they have no options. I guess I'm saying that they aren't necessarily pussies, but might instead be un-informed, depressed men.

[KorbenDallas]

Right now I'm just focusing on making money. I think the Alpha, Beta, Omega stuff is overanalyzed. Once you've made it you can do whatever you want. Personally, I am an LTR guy and reading game stuff helps keep me good with talking to my girl. I have done player type things before, but I prefer the feeling I get when a really sexy girl is really into me. I don't have a girlfriend right now, so, I've really just been focused on stacking benjamins. George Orwell is one of my favorite authors and I think this quote is relevant.

"Money, once again; all is money. All human relationships must be purchased with money. If you have no money, men won't care for you, women won't love you; won't, that is, care for you or love you the last little bit that matters. And how right they are, after all! For, moneyless, you are unlovable. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels. But then, if I haven't money, I DON'T speak with the tongues of men and of angels."

To an extent he is kind of right. The dating market is just that it's a market. I'm really good at making money, so, I play that strength up. I'm also pretty good looking, but I have quirky mannerism's and tend to get attached too quickly. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. You gotta play up your strengths and try to minimize your weaknesses. If you got tight game you can bang quality regularly. If you don't have tight game being rich can smooth over your lack of great game.

It's possible to be alpha and be a bum, but its harder. A lot of my confidence comes from having money and having success in my work. Not too long ago I was completely broke and had no confidence. So, in closing I think the Alpha beta talk is more relevant to students, and high schoolers and what not, but once your on you own you gotta find where you excel and build your own empire so to speak. I think its unhealthy to focus on the alpha, beta, crap. You gotta just be a man. Whenever in doubt think of a man you admire most and think what would he do? Whenever I'm thinking about how I should handle a situation with a woman I think what would Sean Connery do?

[soup]

KorbenDallas, talking about this stuff is relevant if you believe that, in the same ways that a mesopmorph body type might do better with a particular style of game than an Ecto, we come to game with a predisposition towards either Alpha or Sigma.

Not everyone here wants to build an empire. We all want power, but not everyone wants responsibility.

[Kitsune]

The whole thing is a load of rubbish.

Peoples personalities change according to the situation, as do their physical phenotypes.
Nobody would be a 'mysterious loner' if they were blinddropped naked and homeless into an unknown country where they didn't know or speak the language. You're a retard if you're a hyper-alpha to your parents or on the phone to customer support.

Similarly, your body changes phenotype due to age, activity, behaviour, diet, medication.
The ecto/endo/meso split is so arbitrary even the guy who originated only believed a small minority were a 'pure' version of any of these.

[XXL]

(08-16-2012 01:33 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

So if we start overcomplicating things by introducing this sigma character, what do we stand to learn from it? I feel like this would be the beginning of the building of an ivory tower where game is killed in the name of academic categories.

I don't see the utility of it at all.

true. what these labels suppose to accomplish anyway? it's kind of another way of romanticizing the whole pickup stuff hollywood style or some kind of 'feel good' rationalization like krauser's The sigma mostly wants to be left alone to forge his own path and is troubled by society’s constant attempted to draw him back in, imposing restrictions and demands on his time and freedom. quite similar to that overblown 'red pill' metaphore. game is just a skill of meeting women. interesting that nobody talks about learning how to ride a bike as a red pill experience.

pickup guys tend to go crazy.

sigma ahahahaha... can't wait for gamma

[Spike]

(08-16-2012 01:17 AM)soup Wrote:  

Sigma is the bad-ass rebel guy.

We are the rugged individualists, the Clint Eastwoods of the dating market.

I guess i'm a sigma.
[attachment=7311]

Check the name of the store

But seriously, good post!

[Giovonny]

I think we are all capable of playing any of these roles at different times and in different situations.

The alpha in the club could be a beta on the football field. The beta in the club could be the alpha in the business world. The sigma can be alpha or beta depending on where he is and who he is with. Your current situation and current level of status has alot to do with it. You can move to a different country and go from beta to alpha. You can change fishbowls and go from alpha to beta. Its all situational.

None of this is set in stone. We are all evolving everyday. We can study and practice game to go from beta to alpha. We can learn new skills, increase our income, change our look and then go from beta to alpha. We are not animals who are stuck in their pecking order. We don't have to fight for access to females (though we often do). We can simply change our situation and easily change our status.

Don't put yourself in a box. Don't limit yourself. If you consider yourself beta, it will likely become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Strive to improve and max out your situation. If you can't get anything else out of your current situation, consider moving or changing fishbowls.

Labels are for shitty food products, not human beings. Our potential for change and growth is our most powerful potential.

Throughout my life, I have played all of these roles. I have always been sigma and luckily for me I had many years of alpha, I can't say I was ever really beta but some years were definitely better then others. I would never consider myself beta because that is just bad personal psychology. Its more productive to be positive with yourself and love yourself at all times.

Don't ever consider yourself beta, instead just say I need to change my situation. Some guys are born into good situations and some guys are born into bad situations. Don't let that define you. Learn, grow, work, evolve, change.

If worst comes to worst, you can always move to the Philippines and become an alpha. It can be a simple as that.

Labeling yourself is a bad idea because it suggests that you are not evolving.

[soup]

Giovanny, I'm with you on not labeling and definitely trying to get out the beta lifestyle.

I just posted this because I think that if there is some kind of good archetype that can be exploited/maximized, then it might help people try it out if, for example, they don't embrace the Alpha/king role in club or whatever.

I've had more success in clubs being the dark and mysterious guy who quietly stands at the bar by himself, not going on the dance floor, and doing the opposite of everyone else, then I've had trying to be the ring-leader.

[dulst]

I always think of sigmas as someone who succeeds socially kind of by accident, rather than because they try to. This means they are usually friends with alphas because they won't try and undermine the alpha like another alpha would - because the sigma genuinely doesn't care whether he's on top or not.

http://www.smokeinmyeye.com/2011/12/01/i...lpha-male/

[Giovonny]

(08-16-2012 12:46 PM)soup Wrote:  

I just posted this because I think that if there is some kind of good archetype that can be exploited/maximized, then it might help people try it out if, for example, they don't embrace the Alpha/king role in club or whatever.

I've had more success in clubs being the dark and mysterious guy who quietly stands at the bar by himself, not going on the dance floor, and doing the opposite of everyone else, then I've had trying to be the ring-leader.

I enjoyed your post. Very interesting stuff. I wasn't disagreeing with it, I was just adding my perspective. Use whatever tools, images, archetypes, concepts, theories, etc. that will help you understand yourself and improve yourself. If this concept of "alpha, beta, sigma" helps you, then by all means use it. I think identifying with "sigma" has helped you and it will surely help others as well.

I myself am a bit of a sigma and I like use that role to my advantage. It is interesting to look at these archetypes and examine them. It does help when we can identify with some archetype or character.

You have learned that being the sigma works best for you. I also use some aspects of sigma in my life.

I'm sure both of our perspectives will help some guys in different ways.

We never know what is gonna inspire, teach, or motivate us? Sometimes we find inspiration in the strangest places. I learned something new today - this concept of "sigma" - and I can relate.

[MikeCF]

Are you having sex with the quantity and quality of women you desire?

If so, who cares about that other bullshit?

[soup]

(08-16-2012 01:40 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Are you having sex with the quantity and quality of women you desire?

If so, who cares about that other bullshit?

You are right, but I'm not yet having sex with the quantity or quality that I want.

I think this stuff can be important if you are trying out different strategies/approaches. If there is a successful role that you can link up more easily with, than maybe it's more efficient and effective to embrace it instead of shooting for one that will take more time to connect with.

I'm in a dry spell right now. I am working on building my alpha relations (I recently started to host a party, and have been trying to implement all the info we discuss here), but I haven't yet been able to make the leadership role work consistently. At times, I still feel very much like I'm on the outside of the "secret society", looking-in.

[Giovonny]

(08-16-2012 01:40 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Are you having sex with the quantity and quality of women you desire?

If so, who cares about that other bullshit?

Mike, you are such a fucking hard ass all the time!

Thats why I love you!

(08-16-2012 01:59 PM)soup Wrote:  

I still feel very much like I'm on the outside of the "secret society", looking-in.

That "secret society" post is interesting. I must say that at first I didn't really get it but in the last few years I have gotten better at sub-communicating my sexual intentions and not coming across as romantic so much. It really is about your non verbal communication. Girls love sex as much as we do. The trick is presenting yourself as an attractive playmate without pressuring her with romance or scaring her with judgments. Some guys do it naturally, others have to work to develop it.

Fascinating stuff.

[MikeCF]

If you saw me, you'd assume I was a mesomorph. People say I have good genetics. They never saw me when my body looked like shit.

So if someone told me I was a different body type, would that have helped me? No.

It would have hurt me. I'd have adopted a game style that wasn't even the "real me."

Then there's the Forer effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

You might not even understand what "type" you are.

You need to find out what works for you personally and not go based on types.

Or find a guy you want to be like. Then tag along with that guy. Buy his drinks and learn from him.

Reading about a "type" on the Internet isn't going to get you where you want to be and in many cases may sidetrack you.

[flyfreshandyoung]

Yeah these labels are more for general, off hand descriptions of behavior for dudes who need a framework to start from. Continuing to think in alpha/beta dichotomy after one has been at game for awhile will hold you back.

Also, this sigma thing can get ridiculous. Seems like every beginner thinks he is one, when really it's an excuse not to work on his social skills.

[dog24]

(08-16-2012 01:40 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Are you having sex with the quantity and quality of women you desire?

If so, who cares about that other bullshit?

You sound just like a natural saying all PUA is bullshit.
Whats up with all you guys, you're acting like those hipster that are too cool to talk about anything. The forer effect cant be applied to every single scientific study.
Lets not forget how pickup was born, people like me invented this thing, people that couldnt get laid but could break down social interactions to a science. Look at tyler durden for example, his ability to see every detail about social dinamics made him who he is today, he used all those cues and took advantage of the system.

I dont think lack of social skills would be my reason to be a loner, i always go back to being an outsider by default. I tried to be the social alpha but it stressed the shit out of me, nature/nurture who knows..
All i can say is this could be useful, just like finding your niche.
And NO im not getting sex from the females i want
Right now im getting attention from females, but i cant capitalize on it, because i have yet to find the right game for me.
I would say im fucking up the most on overgaming, im sensing i dont need to go in high-energy mode, like in all those rsd videos ive seen. Girls find my aloof personality attractive from the start, whenever i try to DHV or tease her it backfires and makes me seem like a weirdo, so i just need to build confort from the start.
Also, ive noticed that girls chase the "sigma" just as they would chase the alpha, not because he is always busy having kickass parties or juggling the attention of females, but because she knows a loner type probably has a hard time expressing emotions or even showing signs of interest

[hypesession]

(08-17-2012 08:04 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

(08-16-2012 01:40 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Are you having sex with the quantity and quality of women you desire?

If so, who cares about that other bullshit?

You sound just like a natural saying all PUA is bullshit.
Whats up with all you guys, you're acting like those hipster that are too cool to talk about anything. The forer effect cant be applied to every single scientific study.
Lets not forget how pickup was born, people like me invented this thing, people that couldnt get laid but could break down social interactions to a science. Look at tyler durden for example, his ability to see every detail about social dinamics made him who he is today, he used all those cues and took advantage of the system.

I dont think lack of social skills would be my reason to be a loner, i always go back to being an outsider by default. I tried to be the social alpha but it stressed the shit out of me, nature/nurture who knows..
All i can say is this could be useful, just like finding your niche.
And NO im not getting sex from the females i want
Right now im getting attention from females, but i cant capitalize on it, because i have yet to find the right game for me.
I would say im fucking up the most on overgaming, im sensing i dont need to go in high-energy mode, like in all those rsd videos ive seen. Girls find my aloof personality attractive from the start, whenever i try to DHV or tease her it backfires and makes me seem like a weirdo, so i just need to build confort from the start.
Also, ive noticed that girls chase the "sigma" just as they would chase the alpha, not because he is always busy having kickass parties or juggling the attention of females, but because she knows a loner type probably has a hard time expressing emotions or even showing signs of interest

What the heck how did the token pUA guy come out of the woodworks on this discussion.

This thread needs to die.

To the guy above, it sounds like you barely understand yourself let alone the women whom you are trying to attract.
This forum is about improving yourself first, not rationalizing your antisocial behavior, through some vague underdeveloped ideology that happens to fit your worldview (e.g. alpha, beta, sigma).