[tapanar]

I'm 23 and I have a job offer (IT). Company is small to middle-size (I expect to be doing some overtime now and then) and the job is located in Toronto. Salary will likely start at 40k.

However, I've been in Eastern Europe for the last 3 months and I don't really feel like moving back to Toronto again (I spent the past 4 years there). I have fewer friends in TO and I just started a similar IT job in an EE country, for less money of course.

What advice would you give me?

[SVK]

What kind of IT job is it? If it as developer position, 40k, especially if it is CAD seems awfully low.

What kind of job/how much money and where exactly in EE?

[kosko]

Yea whats the comparison for pay wehre you are now?

How much are your living expenses now also?

40K for TO is quite low indeed so lifestyle in EE will probably win out. Just would need more info tho.

[tapanar]

Yes, it's a developer position (mainly Perl). I probably did not negotiate very well with the recruiter firm. I have one year work experience, the rest is side projects or assignments that I've worked on at university.

The salary in EE is good for the country I'm in. The job is a bit different: iPhone applications. With that monthly income, I could rent for about 20% and with some effort I could probably save as much as 50% of my salary.

Since I don't want to live in Toronto long-term, the possibility I'm considering is working for a year or two, accumulate some savings then move out (or back to EE).

[Bad Hussar]

I don't know what the living costs are like in EE, but 40k really isn't very much for a big Canadian city. If it were me I think I'd stay in EE enjoying the lifestyle there, and only consider moving back to Canada if I had the skills to pull at least double 40k.

Unless you have no health insurance were you are now and have some sort of chronic medical condition. In that case living in Canada, with it's completely socialized medicine, may be best for someone earning 40k or equivalent.

[alphaspiraton]

Do NOT move to Toronto on a 40k salary. You will hate your life.

You can pm if you want more info. But giving up a few grand to move back here is the worst decision you will make.

I started my first job in Toronto a few years back and let me tell you that a lot has changed since then. For the worst.

[Nonpareil]

40k Toronto, my advice? Don't go, you need at least 60k to play.


I think 40k is taxed about 9% (I'm not in Canada, can someone verify this?). If this is the case, 40k shrinks to 36,400.

You obviously need a place, and since you're on here, you know the importance of logistics; you aren't going to want to be parting in the core but living in Pickering, Scarborough, Etobicoke, Mississauga or Vaughan, you're leaning on the Annex, The Beaches, High Park, W. Queen W. or Yorkville. Good luck finding a decent place in the downtown for less than $1200, but if you can, then pare that 36,400 down to 22,000.

TTC Metropass, $126 a month. You have $20,488.

Toronto women, despite not being world-class in looks or interesting in any way, will expect you to be some kind of a cross between a male model and a stand-up comedian; not that you can't get laid in Toronto, but you have to put in some burn for your earn. GoodLife Fitness membership (the most generic and ubiquitous gym I felt like searching for), $379 + HST (therefore $379 x 1.13 = $428), that $20,488 becomes $20,460.

You need to eat well to look well. Assume an additional $50 per week for food, which adds up to $2550 annually.

After covering your basic necessities, you're left with just $17,910.

You lived there, you know that this isn't nearly enough to do the damage. Either leverage them for more money or decline the offer and keep living it up in EE.

[Spike]

Income tax is 9% in Canada? can't be real. I paid 42% when i had a good job in Holland before i left on my trip.

[Nonpareil]

(08-15-2012 11:17 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

Income tax is 9% in Canada? can't be real. I paid 42% when i had a good job in Holland before i left on my trip.

In that bracket it's either 9 or 24...yeah I have no way to check, so I went with the first number I saw twice

If it's 24%, the situation is significantly worse, considering I wouldn't even live in Toronto if it was 9%.

[SVK]

Yeah, total taxation will def be more than 9% anywhere in the US, even at 40k. I live in Arizona which is one of the lower tax states and total taxation is at least 25%-30% of my net income (however, I'm in a higher tax bracket). In Canada I would expect it to be more due to the extensive social programs (I could be mistaken though).

But back to the OP - $40k sounds incredibly low. I cannot imagine being able to save anything at all from such wage. I am a dev in Phoenix (much lower cost of living) and got into this industry with entry pay of $50k in 2007. I was actually hired to do Perl, so a very similar position. I had 0 years professional experience at that point and no Computer Science degree (however got a Masters in somewhat related field, but from an eastern European university). With the IT job market being as hot as it is, I think in an expensive city like Toronto you shouldn't take anything below $60k, even for entry level. Not sure what kind of IT job market there is in Canada, but perhaps looking into other cities would be more worthwhile - always hearing good things about Alberta and I am sure there are plenty of tech jobs there as well.
Another thing to consider - Perl is pretty much a dead language at this point and simply not so useful as a job skill. On the other hand iPhone, and mobile software development in general, are in high demand and this won't change anytime soon. It would make more sense career-wise to build up skills in this area.

Presented with these 2 choices I thin iPhone dev in EE is a much better choice. I don't think you would be able to save much in either case, but the second option will probably make you happier in your day-to-day life AND a better move career-wise. Third option to consider would be looking for a better paying job in a more perspective technology in North America so you can save some coin AND build up your resume.

[tapanar]

Thanks everyone.

SVK, in TO I will be able to deduct income tax for a couple of years (from tuitions paid). However, I know what my lifestyle will be like and I'm thinking it's not worth it. I should learn better how to negotiate.

(08-15-2012 12:18 PM)SVK Wrote:  

Presented with these 2 choices I thin iPhone dev in EE is a much better choice. I don't think you would be able to save much in either case, but the second option will probably make you happier in your day-to-day life AND a better move career-wise.

[Saladin]

40K in Toronto would suck.

Not to mention you'd hate your life after switching from EE women to Toronto women.

[alphaspiraton]

(08-15-2012 11:17 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

Income tax is 9% in Canada? can't be real. I paid 42% when i had a good job in Holland before i left on my trip.

Yeah no fucking way it's 9%. We have one of the highest personal income tax rates.

From $45k you will get $34080 per year. But then you will get a refund of around 3-4k at year end.

[Bad Hussar]

(08-15-2012 11:17 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

Income tax is 9% in Canada? can't be real. I paid 42% when i had a good job in Holland before i left on my trip.

At 40K, the average tax would be around 15% in Ontario. Check out this calculator, which is good for simple tax calculations.

http://www.taxtips.ca/calculators/basiccalculator.htm

On top of this you'd have to pay EI(Employment Insurance) and CPP(Canadian Pension Plan), but these amounts are not large like social welfare taxes in Europe. Will add a couple of percent at most. Also provincial health insurance, if this is payable in Ontario, but this is also not very much. Maybe $60/month or so I would guess for a single individual. Ontario people can confirm.

Canada is weird. It's a country with US level taxes (i.e. mid level) that thinks of itself as at least partially socialist.