[The Fantasist]

(06-11-2012 03:01 PM)Snowflake Wrote:  

His post clearly reads Italians not Italian Hooligans... anyway I don't wanna make too much fuss about this, I realize billy (and the thread in general) was talking about hooligans and is clearly upset. I just think he really crossed the line with the comment he made.

Well Billy can defend himself but his post was clearly said in the context of hooliganism. Anyway,enough said.

[billy]

I think it was clear that I was talking in context of hooligans, I love Italy and was in Tuscany a few weeks ago.

[Excelsior]

Full BBC Documentary-Euro 2012:Stadiums of Hate

[speakeasy]

I recently wrote this black dude who had spent extended time in Russia and Ukraine about the racism situation over there. He basically says it's hype in the Western media. It sounds as though you'd pretty much be fine as a black dude over there so long as you use common sense. I'll post his response to me for any of the brothas here thinking about hitting E. Europe(and btw, the dude was dark skinned, so it's not like he's racially ambiguous looking) :

Quote:

Thanks for writing.

One thing I have learned in my travels is that things on the ground are never quite what the media or others tend to make them out to be, especially in many "trouble spots" around the world. I have had several hosts who were in such places at the very time bad things were going on and didn't recognize the place based on what the media was saying. Usually the problems are localized, small, and somewhat isolated though often blown up in the western press.

Russia and the Ukraine were the some of the best travel experiences of my life, and I wouldn't trade them for anything. I was there for 8 months and had a fabulous time. There are certainly very few dark skinned folks floating around (at least in Moscow) but that made me a celebrity of sorts and people were quite curious. I enjoyed it.

Having said that, there is a relatively small niche of strong Russian nationalists, mostly young folks, who don't care for anyone who is not Russian. But we have such groups and people in the US also (my brother went to college in a town known for skinheads). You simply have to be careful as you would in any place in the US. For Moscow that means don't get on the subway or trains late at night by yourself (I did both, but don't recommend it) but I would say the same about Chicago, New York, and some parts of LA. Don't go to strange places alone at night. Guard your valuables as you would in the US, etc. Avoid nationalist demonstrations (had a big one while I was there). Mostly just commonsense.

In addition, if you try to communicate in their language, that will go a long way towards ingratiating yourself with the locals.

In the Ukraine (Kiev), the situation was a little different but not from the people but rather the police. It was always funny to see the disappointment on their faces when I pulled out my American passport.

Despite reports to the contrary, the Russian police didn't care about my presence one way or another. In fact unless you were doing something that looked suspicious, they would leave you alone. On the other hand, the Ukrainian police stopped me 4 times (not realizing I was an American).

Still, I had a great time in the Ukraine, and the majority of folks, like Russia, were pleasant and nice.

In short, while there **are** some dangerous spots in the world, at least for Americans, Eastern Europe isn't one of them. It is no different than traveling to a big city in America in terms of risk management.

I hope this helps.

[Vice]

@Speakeasy - While I don't want to discount what the guy said, the people who say that racism is overblown in EE/Russia (and especially Moscow) usually don't travel solo. Did he go to bars and nightclubs solo? Did he come back from said nightclubs with only a white girl by his side and no dudes? It's when you do the latter is when you attract the attention of most violent racists.

Fact of the matter is that you'll always be safe (in any city) if you travel in groups (of men). Or if you never go out at night.

[speakeasy]

(06-15-2012 02:55 PM)Vice Wrote:  

@Speakeasy - While I don't want to discount what the guy said, the people who say that racism is overblown in EE/Russia (and especially Moscow) usually don't travel solo. Did he go to bars and nightclubs solo? Did he come back from said nightclubs with only a white girl by his side and no dudes? It's when you do the latter is when you attract the attention of most violent racists.

Fact of the matter is that you'll always be safe (in any city) if you travel in groups (of men). Or if you never go out at night.

I think he was over there for some sort of research. I don't know if he's into "game" or clubs and bars. I was just asking his general experience as a black in the far parts of E. Europe and whether it's dangerous for us to travel there.

[DjembaDjemba]

haters's gonna hate.

What's happening (for all ya football fans out there) is that there's probably more black players (and black/mixed people) in Europe than ever before. Anyone who's watched soccer since way back when can remember when there was one or two token non white faces in each these kinds of tournaments.

Now it's different.

England vs Sweden last night had 7 black players (including mixed race), 1 for Sweden 6 out 11 for England. England's squad easily looked like your typical Brazilian lineup.

Even countries like Czech Republic, Germany, and Italy have black players now (born and raised). Obviously there's bound to be more murmurs about 'wtf they doing here' and what not. Haters will crawl out the woodworks. There's probably only 2 or 3 teams in Europe that are all white (most will be eliminated bar Spain).

What does that mean for lone black travellers in Europe? Nothing. Most of these 'right-wingers' are out to fuck each other over. Croatian haters hating Serbs, Russians, etc. Russians hating Poles. They don't bother blacks assuming you don't venture deep into their territory (common sense, you won't go into a 3rd world slum of any colour either). Think of these right wingers as your typical slum dwellers in Rio or Sao Paulo.

When I travelled through Eastern Europe I found that most Europeans will stare but won't bother you too much. You can chase lizards, do your thing, and take it easy with the locals they're mostly friendly.

Avoid Russia though. It's fucked. Yes, you can be hurt there. They'll fuck up whites there too. Asians get killed often also. In Russia roll with a crew don't solo. Avoid it for now.

I've never been to Ukraine so I can't say.

Poland/Germany/Austria/Czech/Romania/Bulgaria are all good though. And women will show you love. Local males will for the most part ignore you. Maybe the one or two stares.

Poland is actually not bad for blacks. Most of these East European countries have black people in power too, mayors, lawmakers, etc. Don't let the western media terrify you with hype and western perceptions of race.

Just avoid Russia. The rest are fine.

The only safety advice I have is don't get a Pole pregnant! You'll find yourself at 40 getting drunk with her dad over Slivovitz and answering questions like "do tomatoes grow in Africa?"

[Excelsior]

(06-15-2012 11:33 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

.

The only safety advice I have is don't get a Pole pregnant! You'll find yourself at 40 getting drunk with her dad over Slivovitz and answering questions like "do tomatoes grow in Africa?"

Could you elaborate? You sound like you have some experience here...

[DjembaDjemba]

(06-16-2012 05:40 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(06-15-2012 11:33 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

.

The only safety advice I have is don't get a Pole pregnant! You'll find yourself at 40 getting drunk with her dad over Slivovitz and answering questions like "do tomatoes grow in Africa?"

Could you elaborate? You sound like you have some experience here...

I have cousins who went to study in Europe back in the day and almost all of them got a local lizzie pregnant.

Their in laws are fuckin hilarious. They simply don't have exposure to blacks and black culture, so they ask funny questions (ignorant if it was someone who actually has exposure like Western Euros and continental Americans). Questions like do you grow tomatoes in Africa? Under communism lots of people grew their own veggies in their gardens in the villages due to chronic shortages of certain goods.

They ask because under a subconscious level we humans still try to relate to each other.

"Why do you do the drum thing?"

"Do you drink slivovitz/rakia/?" or whatever other local moonshine the locals cook up in their backyards.

But they're cool fellows though.

I was there long ago though, when Europe's economies were still booming and it was all love. I'm not sure how it has been in the last few years since shit got all fucked up. Lot of disgruntled youth got hate because they feel globalization has failed them and foreigners are a representation of globalization.

[gds555]

(06-16-2012 07:49 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

[My cousins'] in[-]laws are fuckin hilarious. They simply don't have exposure to blacks and black culture, so they ask funny questions (ignorant if it was someone who actually has exposure like Western Euros and continental Americans). Questions like do you grow tomatoes in Africa? [. . .] "Why do you do the drum thing?" [. . .] "Do you drink slivovitz/rakia/?" or whatever other local moonshine the locals cook up in their backyards.

You've mentioned elsewhere that your father was an immigrant from South Africa to Canada. So did these cousins of yours live in Africa at some time in the past? If they're former residents of South Africa or some other African country, why do you consider it illegitimate for their in-laws to ask them about Africa? And yes, I can see that some of the in-laws' questions are a little naive, a little uninformed, but are you claiming that naivety and uninformedness are racist crimes?

[DjembaDjemba]

(06-16-2012 01:42 PM)gds555 Wrote:  

(06-16-2012 07:49 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

[My cousins'] in[-]laws are fuckin hilarious. They simply don't have exposure to blacks and black culture, so they ask funny questions (ignorant if it was someone who actually has exposure like Western Euros and continental Americans). Questions like do you grow tomatoes in Africa? [. . .] "Why do you do the drum thing?" [. . .] "Do you drink slivovitz/rakia/?" or whatever other local moonshine the locals cook up in their backyards.

You've mentioned elsewhere that your father was an immigrant from South Africa to Canada. So did these cousins of yours live in Africa at some time in the past? If they're former residents of South Africa or some other African country, why do you consider it illegitimate for their in-laws to ask them about Africa? And yes, I can see that some of the in-laws' questions are a little naive, a little uninformed, but are you claiming that naivety and uninformedness are racist crimes?

They're black Africans.

There's no crime in asking those questions. They're funny and not malicious at all.

I think you misread the innate intention of my post (lightheartedness).

[Blunt]

(06-15-2012 11:33 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

The only safety advice I have is don't get a Pole pregnant! You'll find yourself at 40 getting drunk with her dad over Slivovitz and answering questions like "do tomatoes grow in Africa?"

I tried to picture this scene and got a real kick out of it.

[Hooligan Harry]

(06-15-2012 01:47 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I recently wrote this black dude who had spent extended time in Russia and Ukraine about the racism situation over there. He basically says it's hype in the Western media. It sounds as though you'd pretty much be fine as a black dude over there so long as you use common sense. I'll post his response to me for any of the brothas here thinking about hitting E. Europe(and btw, the dude was dark skinned, so it's not like he's racially ambiguous looking) :

Yet when I tell you the same thing, as someone who has spent more time there than home for the last 15 years, you call me a racist white nationalist sympathiser.

Go figure

[Excelsior]

(06-16-2012 11:58 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Yet when I tell you the same thing, as someone who has spent more time there than home for the last 15 years, you call me a racist white nationalist sympathiser.

Go figure

[Hooligan Harry]

Put me on ignore then Athlone. Its that simple. Does not make my statement any less true or anything I have said in the past less valid. It should be a lesson to this whole forum on matters such as this.

Bottom line is that what has just been confirmed in this thread is the same shit I have been saying to both you and Speakeasy for a very long time across multiple threads now. You chose not to believe it because of your own misguided prejudice and racist mistrust. You were not given new information here, you were given information your already had. It just came from a source that to both of you had more credibility because you based the validity of the persons opinion on the colour of their skin only. Nothing else at all.

Think about that nicely, and personally I think you should both be ashamed of yourself given the numerous posters on this forum who have said this shit is being overblown for ages now.

There was shit storm when I dared to suggest that the media portrayal of everything made it seem worse than it really was. You even ended up going into your academic shell and citing everyone elses point of view on places you had never been to on people you never met to try and show how I could not have been possibly right, on more than one occasion too I might add.

Experienced members of this forum who had spent a great deal of time there have been called outright bullshitters when stating exactly what Speakeasy just repeated. And here we have it. Straight from a black mans mouth, and its all good now? Must be ok then?

Nah man, I cant let this go. I have to call this out and I have to call both of you out for this. This is disgusting, inexcusable behavior and you both need to be a little more conscious of your attitudes to others I think.

This should be a lesson to all members of this forum.

Stop believing everything you read in the media and stop thinking the worst of people all the time. Take the time to listen to the people who have been there and stop acting like a bunch of know it all fucks because you know how to use an internet browser. What is really happening on the ground is vastly different to what the media and books you read often tell you. People who travel a lot know this and would agree with this sentiment.

This is not some politically correct corner of the web where its all going to be packaged nicely for you so that it does not offend your sensibilities. There is a lot of real talk here, and that is a positive thing, not a bad thing.

You are on a forum where a lot of people take the time to share their experiences. There is great intel here from people from all walks of life, and maybe showing a little bit of trust to credible posters here might go a long way in helping you actually benefit from their contributions instead of simply trying to live through them.

Just a thought. Now please, both Athlone and Speakeasy put me on ignore. Obviously I have no idea what the hell I am talking about, so you wont be missing out on a fucking thing.

EDIT: Oh to Roosh & Tut, apologies chaps. This is the last time I am going to make an issue out of this and I know you must be sick to death of it now. It just needed to be said, Ill leave it be going forward. I no longer have the time to bother with either of them and this shit is not good for the forum. Ill step away from both of them now

[The Fantasist]

(06-15-2012 11:33 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

Avoid Russia though. It's fucked. Yes, you can be hurt there. They'll fuck up whites there too. Asians get killed often also. In Russia roll with a crew don't solo. Avoid it for now.....

Just avoid Russia. The rest are fine.

Massive scaremongering in that statement!

Do you dress like a Tajik construction worker? Do you plan to open a fruit stall in Novokuznetsk and talk Russian with a Dagessthani accent? If the answer is no then you have sod all to worry about.

"Oh I can't go to Russia because someone might look at me the wrong way" too many pansies on this forum. Do you want to go to Russia? If the answer is yes then stop worrying, man up and go.

[Moma]

Harry - Before we start, here is my disclaimer. I am not trying to poke holes or get you riled up in any manner. You can respond via PM if you wish if there is a fear this thread will go down the usual racism route. This I do not want.

Firstly, I don't think I read your thread on how Russia is safe for black guys etc.

My question to you is this: Did you travel to Russia with a black guy or hang out there with a black guy? How big was your group at the time and what venues did you frequent?

The reason I ask this is because as a white person, one may go out a few times and see a black guy in public or even in a club and no one does anything bad to the black person. That's cool.

However, if one does not hang out EVERY time with a black guy, then one's views of how things can be for a black guy may not be accurately represented.

Whereas, EVERY TIME a black guy goes out, he is a black guy, he can not leave the black guy at home, if that makes sense.

Are you saying that Russia is no more dangerous to a black minority (or whichever other minorities the local yobs target) as opposed to any other country?

I do know what you are saying about the media since I went to Trinidad last year on my own. Trinidad has this reputation about lots of kidnaping and murder. I asked some people that I know who are from Trinidad and they told me I should take the same caution I would in any other country.

Bottom line is, I went to Trinidad and it was fine. I went solo and clubbed almost every night on my Jack Jones and never felt an uneasy vibe once.

So I hear what you are saying, loud and clear about media hype and all that.

[AlphaTravel]

Quote:

They don't bother blacks assuming you don't venture deep into their territory (common sense, you won't go into a 3rd world slum of any colour either). Think of these right wingers as your typical slum dwellers in Rio or Sao Paulo.

I met a lot of 'slum dwellers' in Rio and spent time in some favellas too and everyone I met was really friendly and great. Not bad people at all just normal people living in shitty circumstances.

[Excelsior]

(06-17-2012 04:42 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Put me on ignore then Athlone.

You think I'm going to run away from you and let your misinformation flow into perpetuity?

If you are going to attack my intellect and my reputation, then you should aim properly, and you should expect me to make sure you do.

Quote:

Bottom line is that what has just been confirmed in this thread is the same shit I have been saying to both you and Speakeasy for a very long time across multiple threads now. You chose not to believe it because of your own misguided prejudice and racist mistrust. You were not given new information here, you were given information your already had. It just came from a source that to both of you had more credibility because you based the validity of the persons opinion on the colour of their skin only. Nothing else at all.

Three quick points-I do not have the time or the energy for the rest of this.

1. We have had two major discussions. The first pertained to apartheid in South Africa and whether or not it was necessary. The second pertained to Nazi attitudes regarding slavs, and the commitment of Nazi atrocities in the Ukraine during WW2. The formation of my conclusions in both instances was based on my own inquiry and interpretation of evidence available, not on your race. I mistrusted you because I don't agree with you, not because you are white.

I continue to stand fully behind all that I have said in each of those discussions to this day. I'll alter that stance when you give me a good reason to do so (hint: your becoming a black man would not satisfy this requirement).

2. You claim here that I have already given full backing to the source speakeasy posted. You posit that I have in the past denied claims regarding the safety of the Ukraine for someone like myself when they were presented by reputable posters (this is correct-I have done this, as I will soon show). Now you insist that I have done a complete 180 degree turn as a result of one anecdote, dropping my old opinion regarding the safety of Ukraine for minorities simply because said anecdote was presented by a black male.

This is quite the accusation (one could call it an insult, actually)-you stand and accuse me now of blatant discrimination, claiming that all of my opinions are determined by the race of those I respond to, rather than on my own observation and reason.

Bold as it is, such an accusation is fair to make if you have the evidence to back it up, so I'll ask you: Where in this thread did I make the endorsement of that anecdote that you claim I did? Where is the evidence of my opinion having switched so dramatically as a result of any one anecdote? Did I say what you now claim I did ("Oh, a black man's anecdote-I suppose, then, that the Ukraine is not so bad after all!")? Or are you putting words in my mouth and painting the picture you prefer to see as opposed to the one that is actually in front of you?

To help you out, I'll cite a brief history of my own opinions regarding the Ukraine and Russia (created long before our little debate):

Here

Here

As you can see, I was skeptical of the Ukraine (and Russia) as a safe/worthwhile destination for folks like myself before, and I remain skeptical now. Those posts also show that I have never put Poland in the same category, invalidating any idea that media portrayals, such as the full BBC documentary I posted up the page, govern my views as you claim they do (if they did, I'd claim to wish to avoid Poland too).

That anecdote has not changed my mind about the safety of the Ukraine or Russia. Again, if you think I've stated otherwise (you obviously do), then show it, please. I'll wait.

3...

Quote:

Experienced members of this forum who had spent a great deal of time there have been called outright bullshitters when stating exactly what Speakeasy just repeated. And here we have it. Straight from a black mans mouth, and its all good now? Must be ok then?

Once again, I missed the post in which I made this statement. Point it out for me, will you?

[Moma]

@Athlone and Harry - Let's not let this get into a pissing contest again.

I personally think, we should have a seperate UFC thread for members who wish to bash other members within that thread. This thread should be a man zone and nothing said in that thread should be taken outside of the thread.

It would be an outlet, just like the 'anything goes' thread.

That way, main threads won't turn into personal pissing contests. This thread can be moderated of course, to ensure that debates don't turn too ugly.

To quote the mechanic, having beef at times is good. Having a forum with ZERO beef is like a woman's forum and holding grudges from some former spat is also a feminine trait.

Back in the days, men would have arguments and once these were done, the men would be friends again. A trait of a man is to say his piece and not carry a grudge.

[Roosh]

I'm pretty surprised this thread turned into a heated race discussion.

I think the beef between Athlone and Harry is not helping the forum.