[SVK]

(05-31-2012 05:15 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

(05-31-2012 03:53 PM)dulst Wrote:  

The author of that book is an active hater of this forum and of Roosh. I know that because my thread on him got closed, but his blog is ok.

I used to follow Entropy's site more back in the day when he was still "Entropy" and he was more game tactics and PUA minded. He switched his site to "practical pick-up" for a while now, now it's "post-masculine", I check it out from time to time, but typically the quality of articles has dropped off (IMHO).

I never saw or read anything that he is a Roosh hater, he used to be a relatively active member of this forum, and had a pretty high rep count after dropping some good data sheets, but I haven't seen him post anything in months.

One thing though, he has seem to taken a different mentality towards women, pick-up, and relationships. He seems to condemn misogyny and the notion that women are "beneath men", plus he has a far more rosy outlook then what Roosh or most guys here subscribe to. He also is against the dichotemy of the alpha/beta divide. So in essence a lot of stuff he talks about contradicts Roosh's teachings. However, I have never once seen him write anything specifically bad about Roosh.

It's good to get a different perspective on stuff, but now Mark Manson's stuff almost seems to be going the route of Tony Robbins, all motivational, change your life, think positive, etc.

Mark Mason is Entropy4 on this forum, respected member, but not really active these days. This is the thread on his forum is where he was "hating" on Roosh:

http://postmasculine.com/forum/Thread-A-...ding-Roosh

Not sure if all of it is true, but a lot of his criticism (as well as compliments) is IMHO valid an apparent when you read Roosh's blog. I would have to say that I got infected with the hateful attitude of the Roissysphere (which is generally the de rigueur groupthink of this forum) in the past and I don't think it was helpful at all. Honestly this attitude had cost me bangs before and decreased my quality of life. Successful people have almost always great attitudes and these are the people I want to learn from. This forum has a number of people like that, let's mention G Manifesto as a good example, never seen that cat say anything hateful or overly misogynist, this "handicap" doesn't seem to prevent him from getting laid a lot.

But back on topic, I haven't read Models yet, but heard about it and like Mark's blog a lot. It would be first choice if I would look for pickup literature again.

[OGNorCal707]

I just read through that thread, it's funny because Indian troll did his "trolling thing", LOL, I didn't read all the comments, but I did read Marks and I'm not sure if I'd call it "hating".

I mean Mark has a a much different perspective on women and dating then Roosh, and I think he makes some valid points, that might be construed as criticism, but not really baseless hate.

I agree with a lot of what Roosh says about women, but I think he is really superficial, and doesn't really seem to connect with women or care about them. Some of his recent writing has shown that maybe he's growing as a person and having some form of "meaningful relationship" with women.

Since I've been burned pretty bad by American women and am sick of their attitude I relate a lot to what Roosh says, but at the end of the day, I don't hate women and can see that they may have value other than just a pair of ass and tits, with a wet pussy.

That said, however I do think Roosh continually puts out the BEST game advice on the web and has the best ability to dissect and break down what works, and put it into words. I also think it's kind of lame that Mark Manson basically ripped off Roosh's forum, I mean it's pretty much a carbon copy of Roosh's minus some ofthe unique touches. I used to look at his forum when it first started, but the quality of posts and caliber of poster can't rival RVF.

[SVK]

^^^ What do you think that he ripped off Roosh's forum? Both are powered by MyBB which is probably the most common forum engine that there is. If you mean the topics, well all pickup forums are very similar in that regard.
But yeah, I agree the forum is not really that good, simply not as active as RVF and the posters don't seem to be very experienced. RVF is definitely much better.

Agreed on what you wrote. I, too, could relate to Roosh due to some bad experiences with some women, but with time I realized that negative generalizations about women are simply not true for every woman. There are good people and shitty people of both genders. Are there really more shitty females than males?
It is good to be aware of the human, especially female nature (the "hamster"), and to know your value and boundaries. However outright women hating coming out of frustration is simply weak and very "beta" (hate that term actually) behavior and I try to avoid it as much as possible. From Marks posts on his blog it seems like he went through similar transformation and I can very much relate to that.

[SVK]

And yeah Indian Race Troll had his refuge in the Postmasculine forum. I'm glad that even Mark got finally fed up and banned his ass as well. It must take some special talent to get banned from every forum that you join...

[WanderingSoul]

A bit of hate goin on. Mark/Entropy4 "liked" this post below which is hating hard on Roosh and obviously filled with bullshit. I would still read his book if it is good, even though his forum appears to be filled with pussies.

Quote:

Save her before it is too late. That guy is a scumbag and a bad example of PUA. He has to go to Third World Countries to get laid by women (most likely escorts) and has failed to get laid in Denmark. Rather than accepting that he just lacks game, looks, and life experience to be a Hugh Hefner he spends his blog posts

1. Typing up misogynistic posts about women
2. Posting dumb crap about how rich guys have it bad with women just so he can make himself feel good about being broke
3. Putting up a "race ladder" as an excuse to why he cannot get laid in countries, "oh it must be because I don't have blonde hair and blue eyes", idiot made me a bit insecure with his posts too
4. Complaining about American women and how he cannot get any who are higher than a 5, well Mr Racist Turk, it must be because you aren't higher than a 5 yourself and you have absolutely nothing going for you in life
5. Promoting his low quality books


I quit from his forum (used to be well liked there too) because

1. He banned ANYONE that questioned his blog posts, automatically labeled them as troll and banned them
2. All of the "elite" members on there were scumbags who lied, made alternate accounts, and did all of that to portray to the world how good they are with women, if you have to excessively brag about it online, then you suck with women
3. Race thread after race thread after race thread by Black guys wondering where they can get laid, the second an Asian or Indian posted a race thread, BAN! I posted one and he warned me

That guy is poison. There are some decent PUAs out there but reality is if you are not successful, good looking (maximizing your looks), and worth something (rich or talented), then you are not going to regularly nail really good looking women. That guy is full of crap, too many loopholes in his post, and anyone who likes him needs help immediately.

If he is reading this, I am willing to challenge him to a debate anytime he wants. Reality is, he is too scared to come out and debate like a man without holding the power on his sad little message board.

What I laughed at the most was when he put Middle Eastern men above Black and Latino men on his "totem pole", sorry guy, you missed with that one!

[UgSlayer]

WHO CARES ABOUT POLITICS AND WHO IS HATING ON WHO?!?

This isn't high school. These guys are not gurus to be worshipped, protected, or even criticized as men. They are consultants and sources of knowledge. If you want to criticize anything, criticize their bodies of work. Thankfully, they are also generous with their knowledge and what they put out is of high quality. However, a lot of the members on here probably have their lives in better order (in the traditional sense) than both of these guys. They are good at what they do and offer value in specific areas.

Take what works, incorporate it into your life, and move on.

[DLuzhin]

(06-07-2012 11:36 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(06-07-2012 05:04 PM)DLuzhin Wrote:  

Finished it yesterday book's honestly golden; even within a day of reading it you start feeling, thinking and acting like more of a pimp. I think it's as necessary a part of one's library as Bang.

Think we could get a review on it?

This isn't a comprehensive review---what I'm going to do is throw up one of his specific recommendations indicative of the quality of the whole book.

Here's one passage from his section on race:
What most men of minority don't realize is that racial stereotypes can be used to your advantage. What I've found, and what many minority men have found, is that if you can calibrate your behavior to contrast your racial stereotype, you'll actually create a lot of intrigue and attraction on the spot.

If you're a minority, reading this alone is worth the $20 spent on the book. Seriously.

I'm a member of a minority often known for being constituted of males who are smart, polite, unassertive, people-pleasing, nerdy, and mostly beta lawyers, doctors, and software engineers. In high school I would probably be lumped in with all the others of my race because visually and psychologically, I fit into that group. So I never got laid.

However as I grew up and into myself, discovered my own unique talents and ambitions and capabilities, and on the whole became weirder and weirder, I deviated from the stereotypes, and started getting laid.

I have accomplished shit in creative fields, I'm covered in tattoos, look really bizarre, and am kind of a jerk before I warm up to someone.

If a black man had my qualities he would be slotted into his stereotype and scare most women away. However, since these qualities in my persona create contrast to what would be expected of men of my race, it creates intrigue. It makes me more attractive. I've been doing this for years without realizing it. If I was like one of my cousins--a smiling, boring, hairy, olive-skinned, polo-and-khakhi-wearing accountant who just wants to fit in--no amount of lines or tactics could overcome the handicaps this stereotypical identity had placed on my game.

The rest of the book is similarly helpful in building an attractive identity.

[Entropy4]

I wrote the book and yes, I used to post quite a bit here in the travel forum about a year ago.

As for "hating on" Roosh. I think that's a pretty strong word, and as another poster said, a bit high school-ish. I don't hate him. I just don't agree with everything he says, which is fine. That's life. It shouldn't matter to you "who is hating on who" ... do whatever you think is best for you and your development.

FWIW, I still enjoy reading Roosh's breakdown of countries and cultures and swing through periodically to catch up on them. As someone who lives abroad and picks up a lot of women in foreign countries a lot of his info has been great. Even when I disagree with him, I know he's being honest and upfront with what he thinks and his observations. So respect to that.

Peace,
Mark

[thegmanifesto]

(06-12-2012 09:31 PM)Entropy4 Wrote:  

I wrote the book and yes, I used to post quite a bit here in the travel forum about a year ago.

More recent than that, wasn't it?

[Hencredible Casanova]

Just read this book. Solid writing from Mark which I expected after having read the content in his blog. He's an outstanding writer and covers many aspects of life that men deal with in their relations with women that you really don't see being discussed elsewhere in the PUA manosphere.

Must read for his insights and holistic (healthy) approach to attracting women.

[Barca_0087]

Read Mark Manson’s book after reading both Roosh’s Bang and Day Bang, (read all three this month and already 1/5 through the Roosh’s program in terms of approaches)

The book is pretty good I give it a 4/5, worth the money if you’re a newbie as myself looking for another game book. But after reading I think bang and day bang are enough and this book are more than enough knowledge to start Roosh’s program. (Unless you’re looking at something more specific like bang Colombia or something)

60 percent of the book is mainly about developing yourself internally to the best you can be, by accepting your insecurities and vulnerabilities (which lead to beta /needy behaviors), it gives you in details the process you have to go through to remove some of the beta-ness. That is the main strength of this book. I doubt after reading both books and completing Roosh’s program you will revert back to beta ways.

The rest of the book is about how to reflect your new confidence in other areas of your life, such as living and how to communicate with women (or people in general).

In comparison to Bang, Roosh explains most of the topics discussed in a more cohesive and straightforward manner. Not only that but you see and understand roosh’s game plan as a whole, and are then able to easily to replicate it into practice. Reading models felt like I was reading a stretched out version of Bangs internal and early game sections. Even though both books are on the same subject, each book serves a different purpose.

Like Dluzhin said: “The rest of the book is similarly helpful in building an attractive identity.”

At the end of the day, you can read a shit ton of books but still not know shit. The best way to get ass is buy putting what you read into practice and to find your own tailor fit game.

[Ramon Zarate]

I fully recommend Models.

[the virgin chronicles]

I like Mark's writing and I read postmasculine, but I think it's a little off-putting how much he harps on the PUA community and acts like he's above it all. It's very easy to act like the entire PUA community is full of shit and that the techniques are redundant, etc when you've already established the lifestyle you want from it and seen your share of success like Mark has.

I mean yeah there's a lot of scammy bullshit in the community, but I think that there's valuable stuff to be found for the guys that are willing to sift through the scams. I know that if I had started reading Mystery Method, etc, and then stopped because PUA is scammy, my approach count would be in the single digits right now.

I wouldn't recommend Models for newbies, because I think it's better for newbies to try some simple outer game stuff and actually do an approach, rather than for them to read a bunch of shit about mindsets and pat themselves on the back while they continue to masturbate at home.

[Samseau]

From what I can gather, Models is more about self-help and less about pickup. That's fine if you need the emotional assistance, but often times the best way to improve your emotional well-being is to find success. In which case, you need practical advice and not feelgood pages.

[The Fantasist]

Two thirds the way through this book and I have to say it's without a doubt the best thing I have read on male/female relationships. He has some incredible insights that have definitely rung true for me. Also things which I have been able to put into practice immediately. I'll do a full review when I have finished but this book is a genuine game changer for me.

If you got into 'game' through Mystery Method then this is the book that lays out your progression to the next level which personally I definitely felt I needed. MM was awesome for allowing me to 'fake it till you make it' and his methods and the moderate success they gave me have given me greater confidence than ever before however this book is about stripping away some of the falseness of MM and finding out who you fundamentally are. That entails introspection so the reality is that 'Models' and following it's path to success can probably set you back three paces before you go forwards ten but it will benefit you no end long term. I am genuinely excited to go on the journey.

One quick point that stands out and is at odds with Mystery Method and most PUA advice is the issue of intent. MM was all about not conveying interest too early, don't let the 'target' know you are after her by disqualifying etc. Manson however says you should do the opposite, show direct intent from the start as that shows vulnerability and hence immense confidence. It's more in depth than that obviously but I thought I would throw it out there. As someone who hides intent with women in the traditional MM way this new way of doing things will be an interesting experience. However his point is that showing intent is not a tactic it is your core principle.

There are no lines or 'openers' to use in the book etc. it's not a 'technique' he has layed down but something more important; a path to changing yourself fundamentally to show your vulnerability and your core beliefs, to being who you genuinely want to be not who you think others want you to be or what you think you should be to attract others. It sounds a bit new age when I write that but I recommend people to read it as it may just chime with some of you, especially guys like me who are a little older and are starting to question a few things about their relations with women.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Quote:

A bit of hate goin on

A bit of an understatement... that was a full-scale meltdown from beginning to end.

That said, his ideas sound interesting, but a lot of it seems like reinventing hot water. Or rather, he assumes that the man already has great game and then instructs him to basically "just be yourself". But attraction comes from the nuts and bolts of game - confidence, frame, wit, attitude, approaching, closing, shit tests, not from being yourself. Thus, I would say that the book is finely written but not very useful. Note this important distinction.

[The Fantasist]

(04-08-2013 12:53 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

That said, his ideas sound interesting, but a lot of it seems like reinventing hot water. Or rather, he assumes that the man already has great game and then instructs him to basically "just be yourself". But attraction comes from the nuts and bolts of game - confidence, frame, wit, attitude, approaching, closing, shit tests, not from being yourself. Thus, I would say that the book is finely written but not very useful. Note this important distinction.

I think you got that wrong.

I think his viewpoint is the exact opposite: he assumes that the average guy actually has very little natural game and so over compensates for this by developing strategies to cope with this. What his point seems to be so far ( not finished the book ) is when you accept who you are you don't need to play games you just present yourself to the women with a take it or leave it attitude.

I'll break it down like this: What is the most commonly used example of good game on this forum? I'd say it's a famous scene from 'Viki Christina Barcalona'. THAT is what he is preaching as the way forward. Laying your vulnerability on the line which in turn is very attractive to women. Doesn't mean you get the woman necessarily however you gain much more respect than playing games and using techniques.

I'm no spokesman for Mark Manson but I have found the book so far very enlightening and I look forward to completing it and writing my final conclusions and seeing if what he preaches is applicable to my life.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

But Vorkuta, that is exactly what I mean. While I agree that the average guy might overcompensate upon first discovering game and thus achieve inferior results, his growth is still mainly development of game first, development of unshakeable confidence (take it or leave it, if you will) second. Game helps on its own even if you're faking some confidence, but confidence needs game (or some other attractor) to launch from.

Since you've mentioned the famous scene from Vicky Cristina Barcelona (my favorite movie), I would like to point out that Juan Antonio does many things that are almost straight out of Mystery or Bang. For example:

- he approaches at an angle, seeming disinterested until the last moment
- he begins with a qualifier ("American?")
- he negs the cockblocking Vicky ("does she always have to ruin the moment?")
- he compliments Cristina's lips (following a neutral observation about her eyes, yet another qualifier) but knows his measure and doesn't melt into them. Doesn't compliment at the start like a thirsty dude.
- he successfully avoids ASD by stating that there are no preconditions because everything just happens. This is straight out of the last chapter of Bang.
- he invites them along on his trip (to see a statue), making it clear that he has other goals in life and they are just tagging along

I used to do this kind of bold, friendly but unflinching and not playing games approaches, both cold and social. None of them ever went anywhere unless you count a few phone numbers. Maybe I wasn't direct enough or it doesn't go well with my looks, height, race or whatever, but it works great for someone else. But that would prove the point I'm trying to make even more: having to bribe girls with any of those things in order to get any results just confirms that game is the cake and unshakable confidence is the icing. Maybe I'm wrong about this, or maybe most members here are on a level that makes this the only frontier left, but I don't see this being helpful to a common person any more than "just be yourself".

[The Fantasist]

I really think you should read the book HCE because it appears to me at least that you are arguing against something the book,to me at east, does not endorse.

I do absolutely agree with you however about 'Game' being great to start you off and get your confidence up. The Mystery Method took me from being a painfully shy and inept guy who found women and dating ultimately bewildering into someone who now ( in my own country at least ) does much better than most guys I know and has a sex life I'm happy with.

However I ultimately felt I had stagnated somewhat, my quality wasn't really going up and my 'inner game' hadn't really progressed too much beyond the initial surge of confidence that comes from sleeping with women after years of frustration. 'Models' for me personally I believe is the next level along the path to not just dating higher quality women but with understanding myself better. It may not chime with everyone though.

I think the book might be saying 'Be Yourself'. The point that is being made however is that do you really know who that 'self' is?

Read it mate and pop out a review on here. I'd be genuinely interested in reading it.

[WhiteFang]

Mystery Method is a good introduction — I think we can all agree on that. It's pretty silly and phony but it does give you a sense of the fundamentals.

Haven't read Mason's book but from the comments in this thread it sounds more advanced. I'll probably pick it up at some point and see what can be gleamed. I will say that mastering Mystery-style stuff is good for taking a guy who doesn't know his head from his ass and transforming him into someone who can learn from the more esoteric stuff. Before you get there, I see a lot of value in "force-feeding" yourself the building blocks of strong inner game — I definitely see a role for some of the "misogynistic" material in that endeavor, especially if a guy needs to overcome a lifetime of internalizing a feminist "nice guy" attitude.

As far as "be yourself" goes — that's gotta be some of the worst advice in the world. It's typically spouted by naturals who never had to put any thought into developing their attitude & persona and don't understand that for a lot of guys who are seeking out knowledge and guidance in these areas that their "self" is probably the number 1 thing standing between them and the kind of success they want to have. So I'm naturally skeptical of anyone who leans heavily on "be yourself" as the cornerstone of good game.

That said, if you really want next-level success you've got to internalize concepts like abundance mentality and detachment to the point where it becomes your "self" so there is some truth in it. I think it's also fair to say that a man who is interested in developing a deeply fulfilling life may want to move beyond club pickups — and examining the limiting attitudes and beliefs he possesses is something that he should do at all stages of self-development.

[Major Tom]

I just got done reading Models on my Kindle, and I enjoyed it very much. Like a lot of you have mentioned already, the thing that's most appealing about this book is that it eschews all the dorky lingo and jargon that permeates the PUA lexicon and can easily lead someone new to this stuff to over-intellectualize the process of meeting and attracting women. I'd say it's a broader, more comprehensive approach to game than Bang in that it covers topics like psychology, lifestyle, and self-improvement, whereas Bang is a much more straightforward strategic framework to get from approach to bang. Things like "The Vibe" and Roosh's definition of alphas/betas as they pertain to attraction are essentially the same message of the importance of being non-needy and highly invested in oneself, which are emphasized throughout Mark's book. Both great reads that can complement one another and help shape the right mindset regarding women and dating.

[tiggaling]

I haven't finished this yet, but this book is probably the clearest and most down to earth book on "game" I have read. (I guess the others would be those written by "60 years of Challenge")

[xmlenigma]

(05-05-2013 01:10 AM)Major Tom Wrote:  

I just got done reading Models on my Kindle, and I enjoyed it very much. Like a lot of you have mentioned already, the thing that's most appealing about this book is that it eschews all the dorky lingo and jargon that permeates the PUA lexicon and can easily lead someone new to this stuff to over-intellectualize the process of meeting and attracting women. I'd say it's a broader, more comprehensive approach to game than Bang in that it covers topics like psychology, lifestyle, and self-improvement, whereas Bang is a much more straightforward strategic framework to get from approach to bang. Things like "The Vibe" and Roosh's definition of alphas/betas as they pertain to attraction are essentially the same message of the importance of being non-needy and highly invested in oneself, which are emphasized throughout Mark's book. Both great reads that can complement one another and help shape the right mindset regarding women and dating.

Through half of it. PDF. Brilliant and non PUA-ish natural language.

PS: I've had tough time reading the PDF on phone and was wondering if you could share the .Mobi?

[Nomad77]

Great book, highly recommended. I can relate to and verify most of what he's saying.

[Sleek]

Nomad recommended this book in a different thread and I picked it up. I try to stay away from reviewing books before I finish them, but this paragraph struck me as logical and very true:

Quote:

The biggest criticism of showing interest to a woman that you want to be with is that it immediately shows you as highly invested in her responses. When you say "You're cute and I wanted to meet you," that translates roughly to, "Hi I want to be with you and am officially invested in the prospect of that happening."

What they miss though is the sub-communication going on underneath what's actually being said.

The sub-communication is, "I'm totally OK with the idea of you rejecting me, otherwise I would not be approaching you in this manner. Therefore I'm comfortable with myself and my prospects."

Think about it, if a guy wasn't comfortable with the prospect of a woman rejecting him, he wouldn't have been honest in the first place. In fact, he would have pretended that he wasn't actually interested in her!

As someone who has approached regularly direct but hasn't understood exactly why or what the underlying meaning was, this was eye opening.