Please note that this is about women from native Asian cultures rather than Asians as an ethnicity. This is not a race troll thread - the concepts discussed here are mentioned in just about any book about traveling in Asian societies. It's just a fundamental cultural difference, and I think this is an important discussion for the board given all the guys considering finding a "more traditional" wife in Asian pastures.
In another recent thread, The Lizard of Oz wrote:
This got me thinking about the subject of Asians lying.
It's such a part of the culture here to tell lies. Some women will admit to the most outlandish lies that they told to exes, all the while not connecting that they are diminishing your trust in them by confiding this. Or you'll call them out on lying about something and they'll brush it off as having been a long time ago (when it was a month). As if four weeks makes it old history and wipes the slate clean on fibs of the past.
Your friends lying straight to your face about the most mundane shit is run-of-the-mill in Asian societies. Again, any book on cultural issues here will cover this at length.
And the way I understand it, they don't necessarily see anything wrong with it either - in western society, we value "right and wrong," painful truths, and sacrificing your own interest in order to do the right thing. We often feel guilty when we lie rather than just feeling pained when we get caught.
But in Asian society, you don't walk the line and "do the right thing" out of moral obligation. Their motives are more tied to the group - preserving harmony with the group, keeping up image, and looking good in the eyes of the group. This is also said to be true for principled behavior - the motivation is not to do the right thing but to remain in good standing with society. Even the idea of karma is more related to outside forces rather than some internal moral compass.
Getting caught lying, therefore, is to be avoided because it is disgraceful and disrespectful, both for you and the person you lied to. You didn't even go to the trouble of lying well, you asshole - don't you take me seriously...? But it's not because of the issue of right and wrong. It's because of the loss of face. Frustrating enough, that also makes it difficult to call people out on lies, given that you are assertively causing them to lose face.
When you do call them out, they spin new lies to duck and cover. And new lies on top of those. When they finally fess up, they seem to wear it as a badge of honor - claiming that they were "honest with you." As if they had a choice rather than being busted...
Saving face, yet again....
Because of this basic difference in thought process and morality, people lie their asses off (they can be quite good at it), and sometimes almost anything goes as long as you don't get caught. And as we all know, there are more opportunities to do shifty things, relationship-wise, in the modern world.
When dealing with what a Westerner might see as a dulled sense of morality (should you hold this cultural concept to be true - feel free to call BS), that presents a minefield.
As a man dating Asian women in Asia (assuming that you are), where do you draw the line on this? Obviously, you have to bend your principles slightly to date interculturally (or do you?), but there have to be limits if you want to be the king of your castle and relationship.
I'm also interested to hear how currently married guys deal with this, if at all, as I do foresee marrying an Asian broad in the future. Sometimes, however, I wonder if that's a good idea because trust and loyalty are among my most important values. Someone lying to me even about something small severely diminishes my respect for them; it may be a better idea to marry a simple woman that comes from a common cultural and philisophical background.
I would say this is my number one peeve with Asian society and easily the biggest hang-up in the dating arena.
Those of you who have locked down an Asian wifey, how have you juggled this? Do you just learn to deal and never trust them completely to be upfront with you? Is it less of an issue than people make it out to be if you choose the right girl? Or a period of growing pains as you teach them that even little white lies don't fly?
Do you become the extremely controlling male to keep everything tied together? Perhaps that's why the possessive, controlling Asian father stereotypes came about... Do you play the semi-present, semi-absentee husband who goes with the flow and fucks around on the side, who just tries not to overthink things - as many local men seem to do?
I don't think it can be stressed enough how big of a problem this one cultural issue might present for men from Western societies who think that Asian women are the marriage and family prize. Sure, they do have some great points in their favor, but if you come from a Western society, they think very differently than you too - on a deep, deep level.
I think it's also important to recognize that infidelity isn't the only issue here (lest I give the wrong idea). When you have a woman at home, raising your children, tucking uncomfortable truths away from your discerning eyes to avoid your judgment, it could cause untold frustration.
Imagine trying to raise a kid with your wife constantly hiding their (or her) fuck-ups behind your back, or saying she'll hold the kids to certain rules and then telling them not to worry about it when you're not around (thus undermining your authority). I think these are relationship problems that occur often in Asia (Asian members feel free to comment), especially in mixed couples .
Interested to hear thoughts and experiences.
In another recent thread, The Lizard of Oz wrote:
Quote:Quote:
Realize that while women from other parts of the world, like Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe, often act more feminine and submissive, they are also often more cunning and better actresses than Western women. American women are bitches but as they've become less feminine, they are also more obvious about being bitches and easier to read. Women from other parts of the world are more old fashioned, but that also means more skilled in the traditional feminine strategies of artifice and dissimulation. In the end, I believe that with some effort, suitable girls can be found in various parts of the world, both in the West and elsewhere; but if you go for a girl from a more old fashioned culture, please keep this disclaimer in mind as much as possible.
This got me thinking about the subject of Asians lying.
It's such a part of the culture here to tell lies. Some women will admit to the most outlandish lies that they told to exes, all the while not connecting that they are diminishing your trust in them by confiding this. Or you'll call them out on lying about something and they'll brush it off as having been a long time ago (when it was a month). As if four weeks makes it old history and wipes the slate clean on fibs of the past.
Your friends lying straight to your face about the most mundane shit is run-of-the-mill in Asian societies. Again, any book on cultural issues here will cover this at length.
And the way I understand it, they don't necessarily see anything wrong with it either - in western society, we value "right and wrong," painful truths, and sacrificing your own interest in order to do the right thing. We often feel guilty when we lie rather than just feeling pained when we get caught.
But in Asian society, you don't walk the line and "do the right thing" out of moral obligation. Their motives are more tied to the group - preserving harmony with the group, keeping up image, and looking good in the eyes of the group. This is also said to be true for principled behavior - the motivation is not to do the right thing but to remain in good standing with society. Even the idea of karma is more related to outside forces rather than some internal moral compass.
Getting caught lying, therefore, is to be avoided because it is disgraceful and disrespectful, both for you and the person you lied to. You didn't even go to the trouble of lying well, you asshole - don't you take me seriously...? But it's not because of the issue of right and wrong. It's because of the loss of face. Frustrating enough, that also makes it difficult to call people out on lies, given that you are assertively causing them to lose face.
When you do call them out, they spin new lies to duck and cover. And new lies on top of those. When they finally fess up, they seem to wear it as a badge of honor - claiming that they were "honest with you." As if they had a choice rather than being busted...
Saving face, yet again....
Because of this basic difference in thought process and morality, people lie their asses off (they can be quite good at it), and sometimes almost anything goes as long as you don't get caught. And as we all know, there are more opportunities to do shifty things, relationship-wise, in the modern world.
When dealing with what a Westerner might see as a dulled sense of morality (should you hold this cultural concept to be true - feel free to call BS), that presents a minefield.
As a man dating Asian women in Asia (assuming that you are), where do you draw the line on this? Obviously, you have to bend your principles slightly to date interculturally (or do you?), but there have to be limits if you want to be the king of your castle and relationship.
I'm also interested to hear how currently married guys deal with this, if at all, as I do foresee marrying an Asian broad in the future. Sometimes, however, I wonder if that's a good idea because trust and loyalty are among my most important values. Someone lying to me even about something small severely diminishes my respect for them; it may be a better idea to marry a simple woman that comes from a common cultural and philisophical background.
I would say this is my number one peeve with Asian society and easily the biggest hang-up in the dating arena.
Those of you who have locked down an Asian wifey, how have you juggled this? Do you just learn to deal and never trust them completely to be upfront with you? Is it less of an issue than people make it out to be if you choose the right girl? Or a period of growing pains as you teach them that even little white lies don't fly?
Do you become the extremely controlling male to keep everything tied together? Perhaps that's why the possessive, controlling Asian father stereotypes came about... Do you play the semi-present, semi-absentee husband who goes with the flow and fucks around on the side, who just tries not to overthink things - as many local men seem to do?
I don't think it can be stressed enough how big of a problem this one cultural issue might present for men from Western societies who think that Asian women are the marriage and family prize. Sure, they do have some great points in their favor, but if you come from a Western society, they think very differently than you too - on a deep, deep level.
I think it's also important to recognize that infidelity isn't the only issue here (lest I give the wrong idea). When you have a woman at home, raising your children, tucking uncomfortable truths away from your discerning eyes to avoid your judgment, it could cause untold frustration.
Imagine trying to raise a kid with your wife constantly hiding their (or her) fuck-ups behind your back, or saying she'll hold the kids to certain rules and then telling them not to worry about it when you're not around (thus undermining your authority). I think these are relationship problems that occur often in Asia (Asian members feel free to comment), especially in mixed couples .
Interested to hear thoughts and experiences.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling