Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:I thought that my style was just to try my best to engage in a meaningful and substantive dialogue about a topic that was initially supposed to be about the govt. shutdown but was more or less derailed into these broader questions about budget issues and AHCA, just like the nationwide conversation- then we were getting into further derailed debates about many more things revolved around the meaning and size of govt.
I'd just like to point out the typical left wing style of debate has been perfectly demonstrated in this thread by JayJuanGee.
I, as many others, am not opposed to having such debates about the meaning and size of govt. in a correct time and place; however, there has been some success of a fairly small number of people to influence the direction of the discussion with some small successes in that and potentially large and more damaging successes in causing damage to the whole world and its economy structure based on narrow and short-sighted thinking. Many people who advocate for small govt had been acting really giddy about the achievement of such chaos and suffering of people in order to make their selfish points.
There may be some wind out of their sails, however, because of the recent clear and unambiguous decision to provide back pay to govt. workers for the period of time that they are furloughed. It was unanimously passed, and the only congressmen who abstained were those hard and insensitive asses, afraid to vote no.. so abstained.
It really is a sad day in America that such obstructionism is occurring and not a situation that politicians should be gloating over, IMHO.
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
Really Jay? Here's what you responded with when I made a similar comparison:
K Galt: I have no problem with you going back through various posts of what each of us said regarding a topic in order to clarify various points that were made and dropped in our dialogue. Going back over issues is all fair in discussing substantive issues.. at least when we get into addressing substantive issues. I get a sense though, appearing to “call me out” on various things that I may or may have not said are merely tailored as side detractors that do not get us anywhere in our discussion. In that regard, in several areas I did not get into discussions of the details of the points being made because we are really getting off into the weeds rather than the forest and rather than the issue at hand. Nonetheless, I will see if I can respond to some of your concerns with a bit more detail, if that will help to satisfy some of your concerns about my responsiveness – which I doubt because it appears that you maybe trying to make this some kind of argument about me rather than addressing general substantive themes in a meaningful way.
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
Um, no I did not make your points at all. I completely refuted your points.
I don’t really see the point of getting into some drug out battle about what I said this and then what you said that and then what I said… I question what purpose does that serve in terms of the substance of our discussion.. because I doubt any of this is really about what you and I think… who cares about that? In the end, I would hope that the discussion would remain somewhat civil and addressing overall substance.
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
Instead, you avoided directly addressing my counter points that 1) whether it's Obamacare or War in the Afghan hinterlands, we are borrowing and spending more than we are collecting in taxes, and that 2) this borrowing to pay for all these things is driving up the national debt at an exponential rate, and that 3) the Feds creation of more money drives inflation - which in turn raises the costs of goods and services for everyone. Oh we're going to be paying for this "free healthcare" alright.
1)yes. The more we, as a society, spend the more we have to raise revenue for such spending. You are correct.
2)We seem to disagree about the degree to which borrowing is a problem.. sure it is a lot and surely it seems to be growing faster than the economy. Ok. fine.. Nonetheless, I tend to think that debt is not as big of a problem as some make it out to be, especially, if the revenue is coming in and various sabotage maneuvers are NOT being made in order to create the doomsday scenarios that are being predicted. Shutting down the govt has considerable potential to cause chaos, but then those who shut it down will say that health care benefits or social spending had caused the chaos and not the shutting down. Much fuzzy logic and selective descriptions of causation.
3)We do not disagree that the creation of money by the fed reserve is problematic…… but I don’t give it the same dire consequences as you do.. Nonetheless, I find it to be a problematic behavior.. so we largely agree that govt does this.. and the US govt can get away with it and an individual or even smaller govts cannot get away with such creation of money. IN that regard, the US govt is exceptional.
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
None of those points I raised "makes yours."
Really, KGalt, we are NOT so far apart regarding the facts that the US govt is different from households in how it goes about dealing with financial situations.. Surely, you and I have some differences in opinions about the ramifications of some of that, but if you and I went out for some beers and batted around some of these ideas, likely we would find that we agree about a whole hell of a lot more than it may appear to be on the surface. I have some of these similar discussions with members of my family, yet we still get passionate and side tracked and even engage in some personal attacks, when we engage in discussions, we find various aspect about which we agree. In this regard, there seem to be several areas that we do NOT disagree about some of the facts or even the effects that some govt and/or corporate actions have, and maybe we disagree about some of the ramifications or the importance of certain facts. Your point is that you see govt too big, and I don't agree with that point; however, I do not necessarily disagree that fed making money has the potential to cause inflation and other problems… ,but.. o.k. so what?
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
Instead, you resorted to an analogy that is far more irrelevant and baseless ("...or a large govt like the US to live within what it takes in, and to require us to live within taxes will be like putting us in a boxing ring with one or maybe even two hands tied behind our back") than the one used comparing a debt laden household budget to a debt laden Government budget.
I’m trying to make relevant points the best that I can, so long as we can follow the flow of the thread and its topics. I do not want to make my postings into a PhD dissertation, if possible to avoid.
Ultimately, I am trying to remain in some kind of meaningful dialogue, and probably, this would be easier if we stick to the subject of the thread.. or possibly stick with one area at a time… Your suggestions that I am or attempting to be disingenuous is misplaced because there are only so many hours in a day that we can delve into the weeds of these various topics. Maybe you and I can go to communicate via PM, if we are getting specifically into so many topics that seem to be beyond the subject of the thread? I’m o.k. either way, but if our discussion is getting into anything that seems personal, then PM may serve a little better in those regards.
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
But hey, I can roll with your analogy anyways...
You see, borrowing even more money to pay for Obama care will in effect be like putting a boxer in the ring with both hands tied behind his back, but also tying his shoelaces together, too.
I appreciate the extent to which you attempted to “roll with my analogy,” because IMHO, we make better progress when we have some back and forth discussion, to the extent manageable. Nonetheless, you and I come to a different conclusion regarding the analogy, and you and I use the analogy to make different points. I have no problem with you reaching a different conclusion by using my analogy; however, I don’t agree with your projections about how Obamacare will supposedly make things worse for America, but I do not have any problem with your asserting it. Additionally, I am not going to call you names because I disagree with your point.
Quote: (10-03-2013 12:02 PM)K Galt Wrote:
Oh, and by the way...I haven't watched FOXNews in well over a decade.
Accusing someone of regurgitating FOXNews talking points IS a talking point used by those who watch CNN/MSNBC, listen to NPR, and read Huffington Post, the NYT, Slate, Salon, Jezebel, Feministe.com, and forum regulars over at the Democratic Underground.
I thought that I mentioned this already about the media’s affects on individuals. Yes, maybe you do not watch FoxNews, but you still may be carrying some of their talking points as your own. Additionally, I do not read or watch any of the sources that you mentioned, but nonetheless, I may be spewing some of their talking points based on some of my information points that may be similar to theirs.
I do have some specific dislikes of FoxNews and the extent to which I believe that that media source is extremely misinformitive and deceptive and disingenuous and often hateful and xenophobic. Frequently, I have some problems with the other main stream news sources as well, including some of the ones that you listed because some of them are afraid to speak up the truth or the facts or even to perform investigative reporting. Nonetheless, I believe that most news sources tend to be more accurate than foxnews.
I don’t want to raise to many attack points for you; however, I must say that I find various Pacifica news resources to be pretty good and reliable for getting out facts from the viewpoint of regular people rather than entities that have a stake in misleading people because the pacifica network does not take govt or corporate sponsors, yet no matter what my source of information, I take my sources with a grain of salt because sometimes, the sources are just getting things wrong - including pacifica. Additionally, sometimes there will be sources of information that does not play very well into a gaming guy’s view of the world, so in that regard, sometimes I will have my own internal tension with some pacifica progams, hosts, or guests.
Hopefully, I have clarified areas where there may have been need for such clarification. If you want to continue by PM, let me know.