Anybody here own a firearm? - Printable Version

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Adonis - 08-28-2018

Quote: (08-16-2018 01:00 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Thanks for the links. I'm not as concerned with extreme fireproofing or bells-and-whistles features as I am plain-old theft deterrent. I'd like something with no frills that has 7ga. - 1/4" plate steel all the way around, with minimal door gap. Haven't really factored in budget as I've been convinced that no expense should be spared for keeping your precious valuables safe and secure. I guess I'm willing to pay what I have to.

If all you want is a steel box, hard to beat Sturdy Safe. Cheesy name and even cheesier website but they make an inexpensive steel box in CA that you can customize in a myriad of different ways. Thicker steel, stainless panels to thwart torches, etc. https://www.sturdysafe.com/ . If you want some fire protection, or if you want a better container for your guns that has technology from real safes I would go with an AMSEC BF HD series which feature a concrete fire barrier sandwiched between two layers (4 ga inner/12 ga outer) of steel with a 1/2" plate steel door. http://www.amsecusa.com/

Mini gunsafe data sheet to follow, this is quite a big can of worms with a lot of smoke and mirrors by the industry.

Classifications
One thing to consider for the UL certification is that there are rigorous time limits to preventing entry that must be met in order for the design to achieve certification. 5, 15, or 30 minutes. So let me set the scene for you guys: The UL team gets a safe and brings it in the clean, organized and air conditioned lab. They have every tool imaginable with an endless supply of bits and blades. They consult the blueprints, chuck up their tools and get to work. The clock is only running when the tools are touching the safe. Techs stop to change a blade or bit? Clock stops. Techs get some water or check their Tinder profiles? Clock stops. Techs want to consult the blueprints for the safe? You get the idea.

As someone with multiple safes buy as much steel as you can afford or your house can support and get a bigger safe than you think you need because things have a way of ending up inside.

The most common and inexpensive gun "safe" on the market that has any type of standard is the RSC. If you have a small-modest collection and wish to protect against your typical smash and grab types this is a good category to look at.

Quote:Quote:

RSC- Residential Security Container

U.L. Label — Residential Security Container:

Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a limited degree of protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Construction Requirements

* U.L. listed Group II combination lock or Type 1 electronic lock.

* Door material equivalent to at least 3/16″ open hearth steel.

* Body walls of material equivalent to at least 12 gauge open hearth steel.

Performance Requirements
The door successfully resist entry for a net working time of 5 minutes when attacked against rigorous prying, drilling, punching, chiseling, and tampering attacks by UL technicians.

Graffunder and Brown would fall under this classification. It's a fine high end product with superb construction and materials. If you have a collection with a higher value or other pilfer-able items this might be a good fit.

Quote:Quote:

Construction Rating
Classification

B
B-Classification / Good Protection

The “B” burglary resistive classification is an industry construction and performance rating. This type of construction rating was established by the insurance industry to develop a standard that will indicate the degree of protection a safe will provide against an attempted burglary attack.

Construction Specifications

Steel doors less than 1″ thick and steel body less than 1/2″ thick.

To my knowledge AMSEC is the only company that makes a TL-15 gun safe.

Quote:Quote:

Tool-Resistant for 15 min TL-15

U.L. Label — Burglary Classification TL-15: Best Protection:
Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a maximum door protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Construction Requirements
• U.L. listed Group 2M, 1, 1R combination lock or Type 1 electronic lock
• 750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used.
• Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
• Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous ¼” penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
• One hole ¼” or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.

Performance Requirements
The door successfully resist entry* for a net working time of 15 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms.

* Entry means for: Opening the door or making a 6 square inch opening entirely through the door or front face

Now we're talking about a real safe. These products are massive pieces of concrete filled steel that will take a seasoned team substantial time to get into. TL-30 only applies to the door, though there exists a TL-30x6 which extends that rating to all sides of the safe. Also not mentioned are TRTL which are Tool and Torch resistant safes, but these are extremely expensive and too heavy for most residential construction. These safes are usually not gun safes per se but just TL rated commercial safes with a gun safe interior. They weight 2500 lbs + so need to be put on a slab. The weight is due to them being filled with high tensile strength concrete with security enhancements to resist drilling. These enhancements are proprietary in nature but can include nuggets of hard metal, steel cables, and baffles.

If you have jewelry, cash, or high value firearms like NFA items or other rare collectibles this may be a good fit for you.

If you'll forgive the suspenseful music here is a somewhat classic video of a Meilink TL-30 safe passing the UL test.

Quote:Quote:

Tool-Resistant for 30 min TL-30

U.L. Label — Burglary Classification TL-30: Superior Protection

Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a maximum door protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Construction Requirements

U.L. listed Group 2M, 1, 1R combination lock or Type 1 electronic lock
750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used.
Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous ¼” penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
One hole ¼” or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.

* Entry means for: Opening the door or making a 6 square inch opening entirely through the door or front face
Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a maximum door protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Construction Requirements
• U.L. listed Group 2M, 1, 1R combination lock or Type 1 electronic lock
• 750 lbs. minimum or comes with instructions for anchoring in a larger safe, concrete blocks or on the premises where used.
• Body walls of material equivalent to at least 1″ open hearth steel with a minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
• Walls fastened in a manner equivalent to continuous ¼” penetration weld of open hearth steel with minimum tensile strength of 50,000 P.S.I.
• One hole ¼” or less, to accommodate electrical conductors arranged to have no direct view of the door or locking mechanism.

Performance Requirements
The door successfully resist entry* for a net working time of 30 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms, abrasive cutting wheels and power saws.

Fire
A little math and science first. Energy can not be destroyed, it can only change forms. Fire resistance is achieved by a process called calcination, whereby the fire heats up a hygroscopic material which creates steam. This absorbs some of the fire's energy and buys you some time. How much time depends on the materials used. It also creates a positive pressure as steam vents from the safe to the atmosphere. If your safe experiences a fire, plan on your guns most likely being severely corroded at best, and ruined at worst unless you have a barrier for this steam like a silicon impregnated gun sock or a VCI bag. The fire ratings most companies use are wildly optimistic, most safes do not have a UL fire rating.

Fire Resistant Materials
Cement/concrete- This is the most effective for a couple reasons. Primarily it holds the most water, and secondarily it is a "wet fill" and so achieves very uniform coverage. Safes that use this material will have to have a construction of an inner and outer steel lining.

"Fireboard"- This is quite literally gypsum board or drywall and the most inexpensive (and popular) material. It has a small amount of water in it and it usually contains gaps between boards. Unless it is studded to the interior of the safe it will collapse on itself in a fire.

Ceramic/Wool blanket- I don't know why this is used. Pure bro science. People rationalize that "ovens use it" "industrial kilns use it" but those use cases do not have a continuously increasing temperature. It might keep your goods safe for 10 min until the FD gets there but in a total burn down you're rolling the dice.

Electric vs Mechanical Locks
Electric locks when new got a very bad rep for failing and locking their owners out. Advances have been made in reliability so that some models can be even more reliable than mechanical locks (evidenced by manuf. service tickets) Both types will need maintenance every 5-10 years. If you are in/out of your safe several times a day the electric is moderately more convenient than a dial lock. Some safes have both with redundant locking mechanisms. Anything UL listed from S&G or AMSEC will give a long service life.

Security/Fire Precautions
-Buy/install from someone who is licensed and bonded. You don't want some rookies from Costco or Cabela's to move a 1,000 lb steel box around your house do you?

-BOLT YOUR SAFE DOWN! The easiest way to crack a safe is to just take the whole damn thing to somewhere else you can open it at your leisure. Lag bolt it to either a joist or to the foundation.

-Position it against a wall so that one or more sides are not accessible, this reduces the vectors for attack entry.

-Place your safe carefully in regards to fire hazards. On an exterior wall away from flammables is a good idea since there is less to burn so less heat. Putting it in the garage next to your old oil and paint and lawn mower gas is a horrible idea.

-Consider a safe as only a part of a comprehensive security regimen. Cameras, alarms, dogs, and insurance policies should round out your security posture.

-If you have documents, a small waterproof safe or heavy ziploc bags will ensure they are not ruined in the event of a fire.

-Do not put more than your EDC ammo in the safe. If the FD comes and your safe is popping off they will GTFO.

Brands
Everyone will need to do his own research and decide his risk matrix as to how big/heavy/thick to go. One thing is for sure, go with a US made product from a US made company so that you have a solid US warranty in case of any issues.

Tier 1
Graffunder
Brown
AMSEC TL
Browning TL

Tier 2
Fort Knox
Liberty
AMSEC BF
Sturdy Safe

Tier 3
Stackon
Bighorn
Sentry

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Anybody here own a firearm? - General Stalin - 08-29-2018

^ Thanks for the post. I've been deep reading about all of the stuff you mention in this post about industry security standards, advertised security vs. actual security, UL-ratings, all the smoke-blowing in the residential "safe" industry, etc. I also was looking at Sturdy Safes and may pick up one of them or a Fort Knox. Prices and design are both relatively similar for what I quoted out.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - MOVSM - 10-01-2018

I'm a bit skeptical, but it looks like the Army is taking it seriously.

Army might have found its new rifle in Colorado Springs garage

Quote:Quote:

They [Army] might have found it in Martin Grier’s Colorado Springs garage. Grier, a self-described inventor who has worked at a local bed and breakfast, built the new “ribbon gun” with a hobbyist’s tools. It looks like a space-age toy drawn by a fifth-grader.

But goofy origins and cartoon-looks aside, this could be the gun of the future. The Army is studying Grier’s gun and has ordered a military-grade prototype.

The specifications are incredible, four 6 mm barrels cut side by side within one steel block. New ammunition blocks fired by electromagnetic actuators that could theoretically give the weapon a firing rate of 250 rounds per second.

...

In his weapon, the trigger is an electronic switch that sends a signal to an electromagnetic actuator behind the block of bullets. The four bullets in the block of rounds each has its actuator. That means you fire the rounds individually or simultaneously.

Selecting the “power shot” option fires all four bullets at once.

Getting this to work requires a new kind of machining to get the four rifle bores lined up. In a traditional weapon, this is accomplished with technology that would be familiar to 19th-century blacksmiths — a drill.

With Grier’s gun, the barrels are cut by electricity that runs between a pair of electrodes through a thin wire. The high-tech method offers an incredible degree of precision thanks to computer control.

The first rifle, which weighs about 6½ pounds, slightly less than the M-16, hasn’t been cheap. Grier has poured more than $500,000 of his savings and investment by others into the working prototype.

But by having a functioning weapon, he has drawn a lot of attention.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - CaptainChardonnay - 10-01-2018

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Leonard D Neubache - 10-02-2018

Seems like the seating of the round prior to it entering the barrel is not much more advanced than a revolver.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - MOVSM - 10-02-2018

Another point is while they're calling it caseless, they merely made the chamber the case. This has the effect of making the case a lot more expensive since it is now the case, chamber and magazine. Which means it is too expensive to be disposable.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - sterling_archer - 10-02-2018

Nevertheless, I want this! It's only short time away from the

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Leonard D Neubache - 10-02-2018

I think if the gun has four barrels that are strong enough to be fired simultaneously based on some kind of advanced system for barrel creation then that's the real showstopper. Not a "block'o'bullets" that sticks out the side of the gun (how much does it weigh?). Do most grunts end up having to do constant mag-dumps with their primitive M4s that overheat the chamber as the salesman suggests?

Still, redesign those four barrels into a diamond shape and build a handheld minigun. The guys at recruitment would throw a billion dollars at you just to get a semi-functional prop copy in each of their offices.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - sterling_archer - 10-02-2018

I think the idea is awesome even though it will probably not take off for some time and become mainstream. "Regular" bullets and classic firing mechanisms will be produced for decades to come.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - CaptainChardonnay - 10-02-2018

Quote: (10-02-2018 11:02 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Do most grunts end up having to do constant mag-dumps with their primitive M4s that overheat the chamber as the salesman suggests?

Run away guns don't normally happen with the AR unless you are in an extremely hot environment and really over working the gun. It happens more often with automatic belt fed weapons in which case you would cut the ammo link to stop it from firing but this would mean taking one of the most important guns out of the fight.

I'm reading up on this new space rifle on a gun forum. Will report what they think.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Montrose - 10-03-2018

Guns in Europe

Firearms regulations have recently (2017) been harmonized across the European Union. These regulations are a minimum, and countries are free to set more stringent rules (like the UK).

There are 4 categories, described (very roughly) as follows:

Category A: military weapons and all fully automatic firearms.
Category B: all handguns; semi-automatic rifle/shotguns which either can fire more than 3 rounds or have a barrel shorter than 24 inches
Category C: semi-auto that can fire less than 4 rounds and are long enough; manually repeating rifle/shotguns (bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action, break-action)
Category D: pre-1900 firearms, knives, bows and crossbows

A is stricly forbidden
B can be purchased with authorization and used at the shooting range only. The authorization must be renewed regularly.
C can be purchased with a mere declaration and used for hunting or at the range. Once purchased they can be kept indefinitely.
D can be purchased freely but not carried

The number of guns you can own is usually limited to around a dozen. In addition, concealed-carry can be granted by special authorization if you work in security. Both B and C require either a hunting permit or a sport shooting licence.

So what to do if you are a European resident?
Get a hunting permit and/or a sport shooting licence. Then get category C weapons such as a .22 LR rifle (for practice), a 12-gauge shotgun (for hunting and home defense) and possibly a higher caliber bolt-action rifle (for boar and deer hunting). In my view this is enough unless you want to buy a handgun or an AR-15 (category B).

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Anybody here own a firearm? - sterling_archer - 10-03-2018

Quote: (10-03-2018 03:15 AM)Montrose Wrote:  

So what to do if you are a European resident?
Get a hunting permit and/or a sport shooting licence. Then get category C weapons such as a .22 LR rifle (for practice), a 12-gauge shotgun (for hunting and home defense) and possibly a higher caliber bolt-action rifle (for boar and deer hunting). In my view this is enough unless you want to buy a handgun or an AR-15 (category B).

This has been my plan all along. Join the practical shooting club (there is no regular range in my city) and go for weapons of category B. Virtually no problems when you are member of a club, the big deal is actually the prices of weapons. I thought of buying CZ75 or HiPower for my first handgun and some CZ .22 bolt action or semi auto to accompany it.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Tail Gunner - 10-03-2018

Quote: (10-03-2018 03:15 AM)Montrose Wrote:  

Category B: all handguns; semi-automatic rifle/shotguns which either can fire more than 3 rounds or have a barrel shorter than 24 inches
* * *
B can be purchased with authorization and used at the shooting range only. The authorization must be renewed regularly.

Must handguns be stored at the range? Or can you store them at home, for use only at the shooting range (so that they are available at your home for self-defense)?

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Montrose - 10-03-2018

You can store handguns at home but they must be in a safe

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Leonard D Neubache - 10-04-2018

This is why I get frustrated when I hear guys from Europe saying "we can't have guns over here".



It's about as difficult for them as it is for an Australian. I live in an extremely safe area and I still jump through all the hoops required to own handguns, shotguns and rifles.

If I lived in Europe? Geez Louise. I'd take a second job if that's what it took to make sure I had a decent pistol and a ton of range time.

Sterling, jump through the hoops and buy the cheapest rimfire rifle with a threaded barrel available to you as soon as possible. God forbid shit kicks off in a week. The hundred dollar gun you can have and hold today is infinitely more effective than the five hundred dollar gun you'll be able to afford in 6 months. At least you'll be able to start practicing and have a justification to start storing ammunition.

A threaded rimfire rifle/handgun and a brick of subsonic ammunition. If it means eating ramen for a month then make it happen.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Tail Gunner - 10-04-2018

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:03 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Sterling, jump through the hoops and buy the cheapest rimfire rifle with a threaded barrel available to you as soon as possible.

Why would he want a threaded barrel? Are flash and sound suppressors legal in Europe?

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Anybody here own a firearm? - torridon747 - 10-04-2018

Got to finger fuck a Beretta 9mm. Beautiful, elegant, full metal, 18+1. I'm in love. I didn't realize how big they are but it just feels so right. I need to have it for a full sized carry. Compares to this highpoint c9 I've been carrying around it feels like Excalibur vs a rusty scimitar.

Edit

In general and ironically the US is one of the only places that is weird about suppressors and it has no reason to be. From my understanding places with more restrictive gun laws allow suppressors more freely if you are jumping through hoops to get the guns in the first place

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Anybody here own a firearm? - CaptainChardonnay - 10-04-2018

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:14 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:03 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Sterling, jump through the hoops and buy the cheapest rimfire rifle with a threaded barrel available to you as soon as possible.

Why would he want a threaded barrel? Are flash and sound suppressors legal in Europe?

Sterling actually doesn't need a gun or a suppressor because he makes his own bows and if shit hit the fan he'd just arrow blast the fuck out of everyone.

thread-64068.html

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:16 AM)Eugenics Wrote:  

In general and ironically the US is one of the only places that is weird about suppressors and it has no reason to be. From my understanding places with more restrictive gun laws allow suppressors more freely if you are jumping through hoops to get the guns in the first place

The average person thinks the only reason a person would have a suppressor is to go assassinate someone while they should actually be thinking about how much hearing protection a suppressor offers.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Montrose - 10-04-2018

I live in Europe and I have a suppressor and subsonic ammo for my .22 LR rifle (with category C permit). Handy to train the kids in the backyard without scaring the neighbours.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Leonard D Neubache - 10-04-2018

God forbid you find yourself in a world without rule of law, a coke bottle is pretty easy to find but threading your vanilla gun barrel will be somewhat more difficult.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - sterling_archer - 10-04-2018

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:29 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:14 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Quote: (10-04-2018 12:03 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Sterling, jump through the hoops and buy the cheapest rimfire rifle with a threaded barrel available to you as soon as possible.

Why would he want a threaded barrel? Are flash and sound suppressors legal in Europe?

Sterling actually doesn't need a gun or a suppressor because he makes his own bows and if shit hit the fan he'd just arrow blast the fuck out of everyone.

thread-64068.html

Hahaha! Actually I am beginning black locust longbow today. Totally unrelated to your post.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - sterling_archer - 10-04-2018

Threaded barrel? That is hard to find. For example here is a link to major Croatian gun shop so you guys could check out rifle selection:

Rifles

In order to get price in dollars, divide price listed by 6,45.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Montrose - 10-04-2018

A quick google search indicates that silencers are not permitted in Croatia. So they probably can’t sell threaded weapons.

There are some suppressors for unthreaded barrels (mounted on rails or with screws) but you probably can’t buy them (legally) in Croatia.

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Anybody here own a firearm? - MOVSM - 10-04-2018

Amazing that some foreigners have more respect for your country than most leftists who are citizens.

SIG SAUER to Present Ceremonial M17 Pistols to U.S. Army’s 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard) for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier

[gratuitous gun porn, I mean pictures]

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Anybody here own a firearm? - Leonard D Neubache - 10-04-2018

Goddamn. You weren't kidding about a lack of threaded barrels. Don't really understand it myself. Suppressors are absolutely forbidden here but threaded barrels are still extremely common.

Maybe you can look around a bit more or find something suitable 2nd hand. Worst case scenario you could keep a roll of duct tape handy I suppose.

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