As you will find, the vast majority of forum members on here aren't focused solely on women, the goal for all of us is to become better men in all aspects of life, hence your definition of alpha (even though in the animal world the definition is the animal with the highest rank; I'm pretty sure gorillas aren't focused on anything but pro-creating and eating.)

Don't tell me you don't know guys that when they walks into a room, and girls go "omg, it's........!" When the guys are not even celebrities. Those guys can get laid without any effort. That to me, is a true alpha.

To me, a real discussion on alpha vs beta would be ways to be leaders of the pack and how to deal with other MEN in all aspects of life. In some ways, a guy can do all the things that people here would considered to be "beta" when it comes to women, but he would still get "alpha" results because he still has everything going for him. I would still consider the guy to be alpha.

Because there's a lot of social retards on here.

Quote: (05-23-2014 06:41 PM)Screwston Wrote:  

Because there's a lot of social retards on here.

How did you learn this?

Quote: (05-23-2014 06:34 PM)True Killa Wrote:  

To me, a real discussion on alpha vs beta would be ways to be leaders of the pack and how to deal with other MEN in all aspects of life.

We, as a group, are above 95% of men in the pursuits of women, business, and life in general. You use these techniques, become a confident man, and you cannot tell me that the skills don't translate to all facets of your life.

Quote: (05-23-2014 06:44 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (05-23-2014 06:41 PM)Screwston Wrote:  

Because there's a lot of social retards on here.

How did you learn this?

It is pretty apparent when a guy's social circle consists of a few fuck buddies and 1 male wing, goes out sarging in the mall, constantly checks his Tinders, gets eaten alive in corporate America, and boasting how "alpha" he is because he got laid last night on last call.

E mech just read true killaz posts in here. I don't know what the hell hes talking about.

The office workers on here criticizing and looking down on blue collar guys=true alphaz.

Quote: (05-23-2014 06:11 PM)True Killa Wrote:  

I said Sigma, not alpha.

Actually, you said this, which logically leads me to believe that there should be plenty of examples of people on this forum equating your definition of sigma to an alpha:

Quote: (05-23-2014 05:54 PM)True Killa Wrote:  

What people call alpha here, they actually meant sigma.

Please support the premise to your argument.

What, you want me to call out names? We got nomadic guys here with barely any male friends calling people with 6 figure income and networks all over the world beta because he saw him holding his gf's purse. The alpha/beta thing is a male hamster way of arguing one's superiority over other men because he gets laid more. Swooping girls was never THE definition of being alpha, it is only one of the many consequences of being alpha.

Here is the wiki entry on what alpha Alpha is

I don't care if you slept with 365 girls this year. If people in your area don't look up to you as the leader or as THE MAN, you are not alpha.

To answer the troll's question:

The alpha/beta taxonomy is exceptionally useful and relevant across a very large variety of contexts. The forum is "obsessed" with it because shorthands that are so extraordinarily compact, rich and accurate are few and far between and worth their weight in gold.

Those that whine about how this terminology is an "oversimplification" betray a complete misunderstanding of how language works when it's at its best.

The increasing penetration of the alpha/beta terminology in the wider culture, as well as the widespread adoption of a few juicy insults like "mangina" and "white knight", are likely to do more to help men comprehend some basic facts of life than a hundred intricately argued essays.

Quote: (05-23-2014 05:29 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

It's a simplistic explanation model that appeals to those that wants equally simplistic answers to complex human interactions.

Wait, when did women become complex?

Quote: (05-23-2014 06:41 PM)Screwston Wrote:  

Because there's a lot of social retards on here.

3-day suspension.

Quote: (05-23-2014 10:48 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

Quote: (05-23-2014 05:29 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

It's a simplistic explanation model that appeals to those that wants equally simplistic answers to complex human interactions.

Wait, when did women become complex?

Not sure if this is meant to be humorous or serious.
If it's the latter then this pretty much validates my point.

I didn't even mention women in my post. And your presumption is that everything Alpha/beta regards male/female interaction. The terminology has some hard definition to you despite that in my quote above I'm taking about something completely different.

This is why a lazy reduction of human behaviors into Alpha/Beta serves to confuse more than it simplifies in the end despite the intention of the opposite. It's a great example of bad language. Everybody are talking about something different than the next guy when they utter it.

Anyone that believes differently can pour over the dozens of long threads on the forum on what is Alpha/Beta that ultimately leads to little agreement or clarification.

Quote: (05-23-2014 03:44 AM)LostSoul Wrote:  

I think most important thing is not to be a clueless beta who is a doormat to women. But that does not make one an automatic hardcore alpha! Just a normal regular dude who lives a good life, gets women, can flirt and date/bang them.

I totally agree with this and understand where the OP is coming from in his argument.

I definitely feel that the whole alpha/beta thing needs less attention as it easily becomes an unnecessary obsession.

Don't be a doormat, understand that you are a human being and be authentic in your dealings with people. It's really that simple.

It's only when you perceive yourself as low value that you would be preoccupied with micromanaging your interactions and presentation in order to be perceived as alpha.

It's funny because when you finally sort it out in your mind that you are high value, to try to be alpha is detrimental (you are already perceived as alpha by others, so to try to be is weird) and it's really just about doing what you'd normally do and not being a doormat.

Even doing things that people would consider beta actually help further the interaction. Girls get instant crushes on you and become super self-conscious and nervous to the point of acting socially awkward around you, so it's not about getting them to like you, but instead helping them work through the strong emotions they're feeling for you and becoming more comfortable around you so you can move the interaction forward (all without losing the tension in the process). You actually help them believe that you do in fact like them and help them work through their own insecurities about the whole thing. You're totally at ease and helping them relax and slow down to meet you in the present moment. They're worried about fucking up their chance with YOU.

If you haven't experienced this first-hand, then you certainly would still be hung up the the alpha/beta dichotomy and all that it entails.

I think a lot of guys like to simplify the complexity of human interactions and the dynamics of attraction/arousal/value/socialization, etc. by just pointing at whether something was alpha/beta instead of looking at the larger context.

Similar to when game denialists obsess over money or looks instead of seeking to understand all of the dynamics at play.

The alpha/beta dichotomy will continue to live on just as most dichotomous thinking as it is an easy, mental shortcut even if it obfuscates the real meaning of whatever is being communicated.

When you understand this then you realize that you can stop giving a fuck and let it be.

Do you.

Do the troll OP and others arguing against the term alpha/beta understand that, sometimes it's more important to get the point across than writing a dissertation on how this and that action is beta/alpha in this particular context?

Especially considering the type of recovering betas/newbie who need game. Sometimes they get stuck on paralysis/analysis so much to open their mouth and talk to a woman. Like that mathematician who cracked okcupid to get an ugly asian 4 in the other thread. I think telling him to alpha up and something along that line is better and easier to understand than spending 88 days in a cubicle cracking code to get an ugly girl.

If you don't like that term, use wussy/the man. Maybe it will ring louder.

I'm a nice guy. I try to dial up the alpha and dial down the nice as situations warrant. I'm still not a 100% great at all situations but I'm aware of the difference. I have no reason to be a dick to anyone and walk away from fights after I say what's on my mind. I also approach girls cold although I'm still new to it. Frankly, being people aware and sensitive to their needs (man or woman) is more important to my personal goals.

Am I alpha!? I focused on it before in my beginning days of discovering the forum. It helped me to know the difference but now looking back I'm not sure I care enough about the definition to categorize myself that way. I guess that's progress.

On another note it's funny how many bans this thread is capable of.

Quote: (05-23-2014 03:44 AM)LostSoul Wrote:  

In almost every topic on here you will see alpha vs beta debate. Why? The real world is not black and white. You can not always be alpha in all situations and not all betas are useless chumps. In reality people are a mixture of alpha and beta.

I simultaneously agree and disagree.
In high school there is a clear distinction between alpha vs. beta. The high school jocks, esp. on football team, are universally alpha. The nerd playing in the school band is universally beta.

Distinctions between alpha vs. beta become less clear after high school. If the high school jock works in a shoe store, he's a physical alpha, but a career beta. The former band camp guy who rises up in the corporate world may be a physical appearance beta, but a career alpha with his higher level of income. However, without game, he may exhibit beta type tendencies, such as putting women on pedestal, overcomplimenting, being needy, etc, but that wouldn't matter to gold digger type women.

Distinctions should be drawn between the animal kingdom and the human kingdom to enhance our understanding of alpha vs. beta.
In the animal kingdom, physical dominance is the primary characteristic of being alpha. That is 100% determined by genetics. Obviously, being the most physically imposing ape allows the ape AMOG to claim larger resource-rich territory, fight off other males, and claim his harem.

In the realm of "complex human interactions," the alpha characteristic is a combination of factors where physical dominance is only one factor. Mere physical strength is not as useful to conquer resources in a modern society where law and order functionally protects less physically dominant males. Thus, a modern civilization allows men to become alpha through his intelligence, knowledge, effort, and nuanced physical skills. In golf, the man most skilled at hitting a small golf ball into a small hole from a far distance in the least number of strokes will make him a golfing alpha, such as Tiger Woods, a man who has earned hundreds of millions and attracted many high quality women.

However, evolution still retains its effects. Women still are drawn to men that are both physically and mentally dominant. Universally, women prefer men over 6'0" tall, thus leaving shorter men at a disadvantage. But merely being six feet tall does not mean he's going to be making a high income, thus he can simultaneously be a physical alpha and a career beta. Maybe a modern career woman will hypogamy to be his sugar mommy, trading her income for his looks. Then there's mental dominance. This is essentially what Game is ... woman responding to evolutionary determined behavior subconsciously affecting her active thought processes at an emotional level. Everything you learn about Game is to achieve your mental dominance over woman ... your body language, playing hot and cold, decreasing her confidence by playfully negging her, etc. are all things that any guy can understand and utilize to increase his mental alpha.

The definition of alpha has been skewed over the years due to the PUA community and the fact that actions, people, or emotions are one end of the "alpha-beta spectrum" or the other. Its polar, and its not necessarily correct. Now thats not to say I don't value "alphaness", or try to be a dominant and exciting man, but the fact of the matter is that nothing in life is cut and dry. Everything is a shade of grey, there is no white and black. A career dominating male may go home and be whipped by his cheating wife, a man that is proficient with women may make $9 an hour working at a fast food joint.

Read this article and decide for yourself: http://markmanson.net/butchering-the-alpha-male

You'll notice that nobody is "alpha" or "beta" 100% of the time.

You'll also notice that extrinsically, someone may appear to be alpha, but internally, there is issues that have to be solved.

What I would personally consider alpha is a man who is well rounded, excels in certain facets of life (women, money, style, leadership, business, intellectual pursuits), is proficient in all others, and his internal voice lines up with who he is on the outside. You need to be a man; be loyal to your friends, be a man of your word, be brave, and be always improving yourself. You needn't give a fuck about what others think of you, keep your head up at all times, and understand your own value. Be a leader, be humble, find mentors who have gone down the same road as you, and have passions that you pursue, regardless of what anyone thinks. Lastly, tie this all together with an open mind, the ability to speak this mind, and standing for something that you believe in. If you match all the above criteria, then you sir, in my eyes, are an alpha male.

To me there is only masculine and non-masculine. That's it. I don't know how much of it can be learned/taught as I've always felt you're either born a manly man or you're not. It's all personality based. There are no "career alphas" or "relationship betas." You can climb up the company ladder but if you're kissing ass to do it, if you're being two faced to do it or otherwise breaking your code of ethics to do it, you're not a man. A man has a code.

I don't really feel like delving into this much deeper but to me, it's pretty black and white. You're a man or you're not a man. There are personality traits and characteristics that are classically masculine, and you either possess them or you don't. In my opinion.

Sleeping with a bunch of women doesn't make you alpha, nor does making a lot of money. It makes you look cool, fine. It makes you popular, sure. But if you're measuring your manhood by how many women you can fuck or how much money you make you're missing the point. You can do all those things and still be a pussy deep down.

Quote: (07-04-2014 01:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

To me there is only masculine and non-masculine. That's it. I don't know how much of it can be learned/taught as I've always felt you're either born a manly man or you're not. It's all personality based. There are no "career alphas" or "relationship betas." You can climb up the company ladder but if you're kissing ass to do it, if you're being two faced to do it or otherwise breaking your code of ethics to do it, you're not a man. A man has a code.

I don't really feel like delving into this much deeper but to me, it's pretty black and white. You're a man or you're not a man. There are personality traits and characteristics that are classically masculine, and you either possess them or you don't. In my opinion.

Sleeping with a bunch of women doesn't make you alpha, nor does making a lot of money. It makes you look cool, fine. It makes you popular, sure. But if you're measuring your manhood by how many women you can fuck or how much money you make you're missing the point. You can do all those things and still be a pussy deep down.

Yeah exactly. I have seen that term "career alphas" being thrown around a couple of times before in threads on the forum. But I think it doesn't make much sense. Mark Zuckerberg has been talked about a lot already, so no need to get into it again, but I think everyone agrees that Zuck is not alpha.

Also, being successful in the corporate world doesn't have much to do with being alpha in my opinion. It has more to do with fitting in, being good at playing office politics, being PC etc. I don't think that most people high up in the corporate hierarchy are very alpha.

Quote: (07-04-2014 10:46 AM)arribaperro Wrote:  

Thus, a modern civilization allows men to become alpha through his intelligence, knowledge, effort, and nuanced physical skills. In golf, the man most skilled at hitting a small golf ball into a small hole from a far distance in the least number of strokes will make him a golfing alpha, such as Tiger Woods, a man who has earned hundreds of millions and attracted many high quality women.

Also that has been discussed before - simply being good at something doesn't make you alpha. Because that would mean that every top chess player is alpha, or every top coder is alpha, or that the WOW world champion is alpha. I think alphaness cannot be tied to the mastery of a certain field or activity.

Oftentimes people who really excel at something are alpha though, because their alpha personality drives them to better themselves and achieve goals. But it's not always the case.

Quote: (07-04-2014 03:03 PM)Ice Wrote:  

Also that has been discussed before - simply being good at something doesn't make you alpha. Because that would mean that every top chess player is alpha, or every top coder is alpha, or that the WOW world champion is alpha. I think alphaness cannot be tied to the mastery of a certain field or activity.

I agree that being good at something doesn't make you alpha. I can be very good at sweeping my floors, but nobody cares about that. The only thing that matters is being good at something that makes you a lot of money, or gives you fame, status, or power. Maybe simply being famous is not alpha in the eyes of men ... heck, Jonah Hill is famous, but he has high value in the eyes of women.

Quote: (07-04-2014 01:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

But if you're measuring your manhood by how many women you can fuck or how much money you make you're missing the point. You can do all those things and still be a pussy deep down.

So can a guy with supreme self-confidence and won't take shit from anybody, but is poor as a homeless guy and gets no pussy be an alpha male? Most people judge others by results, not by how he thinks about himself. If an athlete thinks he should belong in the Olympics, but he cannot run or swim fast enough, then obviously he is not an Olympic caliber athlete.

Another example. Say there's a prince born who is small in stature, shy, and has no confidence. Yes, we could call him a beta. But does it even matter when he has the kingdom's wealth, the power of his military, and the ability to order any woman to join his harem? Does it matter if he's a physical and mental beta? And the alpha warrior that was just sent to a far away dangerous mission to his doom. Does it matter he's an alpha? Who got to bang the babes and reproduce? Only results matter.

The only purpose of debating alpha vs. beta is to quickly illustrate certain principles for the final purpose of banging quality women. The rest is semantics.

Quote: (07-04-2014 03:29 PM)arribaperro Wrote:  

Quote: (07-04-2014 01:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

Another example. Say there's a prince born who is small in stature, shy, and has no confidence. Yes, we could call him a beta. But does it even matter when he has the kingdom's wealth, the power of his military, and the ability to order any woman to join his harem? Does it matter if he's a mental beta?

Yeah I do think it matters, because we're moving away from a situation where wealth and power automatically translates to having a lot of women. It used to be that way, and it still is in "traditional" societies, but in the West that's not necessarily the case anymore.

[quote] (07-04-2014 03:29 PM)arribaperro Wrote:  

[quote='Ice' pid='771744' dateline='1404504214'][/quote]

[quote] (07-04-2014 01:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

So can a guy with supreme self-confidence and won't take shit from anybody, but is poor as a homeless guy and gets no pussy be an alpha male? Most people judge others by results, not by how he thinks about himself. If an athlete thinks he should belong in the Olympics, but he cannot run or swim fast enough, then obviously he is not an Olympic caliber athlete.[/quote]

If that guy has supreme self-confidence and really is alpha, then he should be getting pussy. There is no reason why he shouldn't. Because he's poor? I think that doesn't really play much of a role in the West.